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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:59 pm 
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Mule Driver wrote:
Think further about that for a moment, Jack.
SNIP
Never going to be a perfect classification system.


Mule, IIRC you got DC'd under the punch-only DC system the year before they introduced CCR? In your case, you should never have been DC'd in the first place, and I doubt you would have been with CCR... (And frankly, you probably were a sandbagger for taking it! :lol: :lol: :lol: )

That out of the way, now that they have CCR, DC-ing *should* be more accurate, and especially would be if they made it a 2-years running without appropriate punches or CCR. Also, keep in mind sub punches no longer count, and there were a handful of shooters that held onto M though subs.

But to your point, ANY M DC-ing will make AA more competitive by increasing the number of competitive shooters in it. But is that really a bad thing? <<flamesuit donned>> In a system like that, to make M a shooter is going to have to actually earn it through shooting ability. Way I see it, it turns M class into something that means something; yet at the same time does not hurt A, B, C, or D class one iota...



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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:49 pm 
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J.Fred_Muggs wrote:
Long term residents of any class will suffer at the hands of the up-and-comers passing thru on their way up.


True, but that comes with the territory of being a long term resident in one of those classes. I know many, and they are quite happy chasing their personal goals.

If there’s ever any system where ‘everyone gets to be a winner’, what’s the point?


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:09 pm 
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The situation Mule is talking about is caused by not having enough shooters in specific classes. When you have over 100 people in a shoot and 60 of them are Masters and most of the lower classes don't even have 10 you will get goofy stuff with the eligible punches and winning scores per class. I get that people take pride in being a master class shooter and don't want to down class but Masters class should really be for the best of the best that register a lot of targets and average in the 90's. I would prefer 4 to 5 classes with a better distribution of shooters in each class. This is not really about being "fair" in my opinion it more about being realistic. As a new shooter I would rather compete with 25 shooters in my class and get a punch for 3rd than get one punch for 1st place with 5 shooters in my class. I think it is a little like boxing with way too many weight classes and too many belts.

Either way I plan to register for more shoots and hopefully punch up to C class soon...if I joined last year I would already be C class based on punch in 1st 300 targets....no biggie just got to get those next 5 punches.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:07 pm 
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Rooster booster wrote:
J.Fred_Muggs wrote:
Long term residents of any class will suffer at the hands of the up-and-comers passing thru on their way up.


True, but that comes with the territory of being a long term resident in one of those classes. I know many, and they are quite happy chasing their personal goals.


If that is true, why ask "what can we do to support lower class registered shooter?"


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:20 pm 
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J.Fred_Muggs wrote:
Rooster booster wrote:
J.Fred_Muggs wrote:
Long term residents of any class will suffer at the hands of the up-and-comers passing thru on their way up.


True, but that comes with the territory of being a long term resident in one of those classes. I know many, and they are quite happy chasing their personal goals.


If that is true, why ask "what can we do to support lower class registered shooter?"



Really? Ok, since you served that one up.

It’s not all about classification. It’s about being safe, having fun, being around friends and like minded folks. It’s about learning how to enjoy the learning, hard work, and progress that follows. It’s about going from learning how to hit very simple, to increasingly difficult presentations, then on to pairs. It’s about many, many things besides what class someone ends up in.

In 35 years of doing this, I’ve been honored to introduce many to the fun of shotgunning. Some take up the competition torch full on, most not so much. I’ve seen several go from E to M in the way we all envision, but not without putting the work in.

I’ve seen others that will never advance, but when they go from 25% to 50%, they are thrilled. Could go on all day about the little achievements that are there for new shooters to be helped with, and for them to take pride in.

But there are many more casual competitive shooters out there who are quite happy with a personal best, than most anything else, and that’s fine.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:12 pm 
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I'm truly surprised it took this long for this or the related similar threads seem to appear in the late Fall/Winter :wink: With all this Covid mess going on :?

For those folks that have been here for a bit----- Jack-Mule-Rooster and several other names I saw how many times does the

"How do we fix M Class"
"How do we get more people to shoot Registered" and now
"How do we support lower class shooters"

And what's changed in all these years? Not much - I think we can all agree to some small changes but really not much.

Basicly it boils down to does a person what to shoot Registered (warts and all) or not? There will never be a "perfect" solution that everyone will gush over and we'll all get together and sing Cum-By-Yaw around the fire {hs#

Shoot um up whatever your choice is :D Keep it FUN!! and enjoyable to you-Stay safe and take care {hs# :D

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:22 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:39 pm
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Great topic. I started shooting about 6 years ago and last year was the first year I started shooting registered shoots. These comments are particular to Ohio, where I live. The clubs and the Ohio state sporting clays association do a terrible job of getting info out about shoots. I shot in the state tournament last year, and there was zero information on the state association website and the host site, Cardinal had nothing but a calendar entry. It's like a secret society for a lot of information. There were entire events I had no idea were being held at the state shoot!
Again these comments are exclusive to Ohio. I've seen good communication from other clubs around the country for shoots they are hosting.

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 7:07 pm 
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hopper810 wrote:
I'm truly surprised it took this long for this or the related similar threads seem to appear in the late Fall/Winter :wink: With all this Covid mess going on :?

For those folks that have been here for a bit----- Jack-Mule-Rooster and several other names I saw how many times does the

"How do we fix M Class"
"How do we get more people to shoot Registered" and now
"How do we support lower class shooters"

And what's changed in all these years? Not much - I think we can all agree to some small changes but really not much.

Basicly it boils down to does a person what to shoot Registered (warts and all) or not? There will never be a "perfect" solution that everyone will gush over and we'll all get together and sing Cum-By-Yaw around the fire {hs#

Shoot um up whatever your choice is :D Keep it FUN!! and enjoyable to you-Stay safe and take care {hs# :D


Excellent!


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:53 am 
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Lacy--you're in D class and know what's best for M class. Really ?

Just trolling I guess. M class shooters put a huge amount of money into supporting the clubs and shooting enough to get 20 punches in AA class and now you want to down-class them. Maybe it would be better for you to put in the money and work to get to M class before making such snarky posts.

This shoot you refer to is a perfect example of M class shootes supporting the game and the club and other shooters wanting something for nothing. That sounds like socialism to me.

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:10 pm 
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sera wrote:
Lacy--you're in D class and know what's best for M class. Really ?

Just trolling I guess. M class shooters put a huge amount of money into supporting the clubs and shooting enough to get 20 punches in AA class and now you want to down-class them. Maybe it would be better for you to put in the money and work to get to M class before making such snarky posts.

This shoot you refer to is a perfect example of M class shootes supporting the game and the club and other shooters wanting something for nothing. That sounds like socialism to me.


Sera,

His post didn’t come off “snarky” at all, at least to me.

I think it’s a legitimate concern that in some classes there’s not enough shooters to get punches and move up to the next class.

You need 3 shooters in class for the top one to get a bunch, 10 shooters in class for the top shooter to get two punches and the second to get one punch. With 15 shooters in class, the top dog gets 4 punches, the second shooter gets 2 punches, and the 3rd shooters get one punch.

I don’t know what your experiences are, but many times I’ve seen a person have only 7 or 8 shooters in class, and shoot a decent score and is second in class but receives no punches. And, the class above him has more than 15 shooters, and the guy who finished second got two punches — but when the shooter in the lower class shoots a better or equal score to the shooter in the upper class, and he gets no punches, that can get aggravating. Especially when it happens over and over again during a season.

Now, I don’t know what the correct answer is to solve that, but I don’t necessarily think it’s to purge Master Class. It would seem the easiest way would be to simply award the lower class shooter the same number of punches as the class above him/her got for the same score when there’s not enough shooters in class.


Last edited by Mule Driver on Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:14 pm 
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The punch and classification system is a joke. The only thing that means anything is the score YOU shot. If it bothers you that you aren't moving up with high scores declare up to AA and have at it.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 2:56 pm 
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I think that fewer classes could be useful.

New "C" = old "E" through the bottom half of old "C."
New "B" = top half of old "C" through bottom half of old "A."
New "A" = top half of old "A" combined with "AA."
"Master" leave it alone; though, it could be renamed "AA" for the sake of consistency.

That should help alleviate the problem of "too few to punch" in the classes below Master.

(It would not address the issue of systematic misclassification, but that is a different problem.)


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:08 pm 
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Mule--there's no evidence that changing the rules will make one person more become registered shooters.

Leave the rules alone and let the new people learn to shoot just like we had to. When I was in AA , Mack Davis, Justin Royal and Joey Bolton were in AA w/ me. I did no crying. I did not petition the UN to change the rules. I buckled down and got better.

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Our prentice Tom may now refuse
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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:09 pm 
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lt0026 wrote:
The punch and classification system is a joke. The only thing that means anything is the score YOU shot. If it bothers you that you aren't moving up with high scores declare up to AA and have at it.


As I’ve said many times, I really don’t care what classification system they use. They all have their own specific positive and negative issues.

But the Punch System because of its money generating ability for the NSCA, is probably here to stay. If there’s a few tweaks to be made here and there, so much the better. And I think the too few shooters in class issue is something that needs some attention and help.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:12 pm 
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mwr01 wrote:
I think that fewer classes could be useful.

New "C" = old "E" through the bottom half of old "C."
New "B" = top half of old "C" through bottom half of old "A."
New "A" = top half of old "A" combined with "AA."
"Master" leave it alone; though, it could be renamed "AA" for the sake of consistency.

That should help alleviate the problem of "too few to punch" in the classes below Master.

(It would not address the issue of systematic misclassification, but that is a different problem.)


Excellent idea!


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:13 pm 
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mwr01 wrote:
I think that fewer classes could be useful.

New "C" = old "E" through the bottom half of old "C."
New "B" = top half of old "C" through bottom half of old "A."
New "A" = top half of old "A" combined with "AA."
"Master" leave it alone; though, it could be renamed "AA" for the sake of consistency.

That should help alleviate the problem of "too few to punch" in the classes below Master.

(It would not address the issue of systematic misclassification, but that is a different problem.)

I agree completely, but I might have one more - M, A, B, C, D

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:21 pm 
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Hmm, just a few years ago, shooters wanted more classes to give an opportunity for the lower classes to move up.
If you think you deserved a punch for any reason, give yourself as many as you think you deserve. When you get the number required to move up, declare up. This would make a lot of folks happy and keep the IT guy at NSCA from tearing his hair out because he had to reprogram the computer again.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:22 pm 
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sera wrote:
Mule--there's no evidence that changing the rules will make one person more become registered shooters.


I’ve seen more than one registered shooter quit after becoming frustrated by shooting good scores and not getting punches to move up in class because there wasn’t enough shooters in class. It’s a real problem for some. I think it’s worth dealing with so as not to lose shooters.

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Leave the rules alone and let the new people learn to shoot just like we had to. When I was in AA , Mack Davis, Justin Royal and Joey Bolton were in AA w/ me. I did no crying. I did not petition the UN to change the rules. I buckled down and got better.


Certainly not looking for major rule changes. But when I moved up through the classes, I too “buckled down “ and worked harder. But the game is different and much harder these days. The target difficulty is at the top of the list.

Getting started and “Moving on up” isn’t as easy now as it was when we went through that.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:50 pm 
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Certainly not looking for major rule changes. But when I moved up through the classes, I too “buckled down “ and worked harder. But the game is different and much harder these days. The target difficulty is at the top of the list.

Getting started and “Moving on up” isn’t as easy now as it was when we went through that.[/quote]

I've only been shooting registered about 5 years and was curious about the level of difficulty over the years. The sub gauge punch rule is considerable change if you ask me also. Is shooting side events all week gathering punches and never breaking above an 85 average for the year a Master? Has the amount of punches needed ever increased in the last 20 years?


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 3:54 pm 
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Where have you been shooting side events, where some can gather punches, not shooting over 85?:-)

Yes, in the last 20 years, the punch requirement to shoot into M class has changed, read increased. It hasn’t changed in the last several years. 2013 or ‘14 I think it went to 20.




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