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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:10 pm 
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xsshooter wrote:
Jack, I like your proposal.

With regard to mandatory down classing, I'm not in M so can't comment on this; however, would there be a drop in participation from the guys that get down classed?

If so, any thoughts if keeping a sub designation would help.

For example I achieve M class, then get down classed to A, but would be known as Master-A.


1) I doubt mandatory DC would have any impact on the number of shooters shooting -- M guys shoot because they love the game; and most A and AA shooters compete because they want to achieve M. (I think there are a relatively larger portion of D, C and B shooters that are happy shooting occasionally and happy wherever they end up -- and that's okay!)

2) I personally could see an M>A classification being viewed as a negative mark, sort of underscoring an "I made it but couldn't hold onto it" label. I personally think it best to leave the classes at the simple 4.

3) With subs out it will mean some B through AA shooters would take longer to matriculate up -- I didn't ever see very many C or lower class shooters shooting subs, but there were some. I am fine with subs in their own class as it makes logical sense -- however IMHO this will cause a net LOSS of revenue as now many of the past sub shooters won't bother now. I think however this same group *might* start shooting more pump and SxS, since they are still 12ga punches. We will see...



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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:42 pm 
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It’s amazing that a topic such as this that would get 0% traction in real life. At a sporting clays competition most would just laugh this off, including myself. Now all of a sudden, it becomes a tractor pull topic on the internet. -Guys are obviously bored; pontificating on the topic to no end here.

Most “Lower” class shooters aren’t willing to put the time, the dedication or the money to become a better shooter. -I did not say “good”. If most deem “good” to be in Master class, then so be it. This is a ruthless game of individualism and innovation of your own skill set. It is up to each individual to fight their way up the class system through hard work. Most will not and are too lazy, don’t want to do the work that it takes to get there. Most have no concept of just what it takes and the sacrifices that are made to achieve the goal on the road to great shooting.

If Bernie Sanders became a Sporting Clays shooter, he would start a movement that “it’s just not fair” that Master Class shooters are so damn good, so we need to give them a haircut with a handicap system. Your 96? It just became an 86 under the M class -10 bird “it’s not fair” program. Another outright failure of the “Participation Trophy Generation”.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:15 pm 
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Again, everybody has an opinion.

But reality in *MY* area is that most lower class shooters do not care for the existing system, while most M shooters don't care...

The main two complaints I hear from the lower classes are 1) not enough shooters in a class to punch and then, 2) whenever the newest hot rod comes through and shoots what would be an A1 score in C class or an AA1 score in B class.

But I respect in your area nobody cares and would laugh at this discussion.

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:32 pm 
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JacksBack wrote:
Again, everybody has an opinion.

But reality in *MY* area is that most lower class shooters do not care for the existing system, while most M shooters don't care...

The main two complaints I hear from the lower classes are 1) not enough shooters in a class to punch and then, 2) whenever the newest hot rod comes through and shoots what would be an A1 score in C class or an AA1 score in B class.

But I respect in your area nobody cares and would laugh at this discussion.

I see the same things as you do here as well. I agree with 4 classes, no matter the nomenclature and a longer period to accumulate punches. I am now in an area where registered shoots are few and far between and far away, so even trying to earn a punch is not as easy as it was before.

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 1:53 pm 
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CubaLibre wrote:
It’s amazing that a topic such as this that would get 0% traction in real life. At a sporting clays competition most would just laugh this off, including myself. Now all of a sudden, it becomes a tractor pull topic on the internet. -Guys are obviously bored; pontificating on the topic to no end here.

Most “Lower” class shooters aren’t willing to put the time, the dedication or the money to become a better shooter. -I did not say “good”. If most deem “good” to be in Master class, then so be it. This is a ruthless game of individualism and innovation of your own skill set. It is up to each individual to fight their way up the class system through hard work. Most will not and are too lazy, don’t want to do the work that it takes to get there. Most have no concept of just what it takes and the sacrifices that are made to achieve the goal on the road to great shooting.

If Bernie Sanders became a Sporting Clays shooter, he would start a movement that “it’s just not fair” that Master Class shooters are so damn good, so we need to give them a haircut with a handicap system. Your 96? It just became an 86 under the M class -10 bird “it’s not fair” program. Another outright failure of the “Participation Trophy Generation”.


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I actually agree with most of this. Not everyone is as competitive as others......but I have the the ‘spark’ ignite with some in just want to have fun’ shooters in the lower classes.

I also agree that there’s too many classes, leading to watered down, too few at the smaller shoot level, where many people live in this country.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:39 pm 
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CubaLibre wrote:
It’s amazing that a topic such as this that would get 0% traction in real life. At a sporting clays competition most would just laugh this off, including myself. Now all of a sudden, it becomes a tractor pull topic on the internet. -Guys are obviously bored; pontificating on the topic to no end here.

Most “Lower” class shooters aren’t willing to put the time, the dedication or the money to become a better shooter. -I did not say “good”. If most deem “good” to be in Master class, then so be it. This is a ruthless game of individualism and innovation of your own skill set. It is up to each individual to fight their way up the class system through hard work. Most will not and are too lazy, don’t want to do the work that it takes to get there. Most have no concept of just what it takes and the sacrifices that are made to achieve the goal on the road to great shooting.

If Bernie Sanders became a Sporting Clays shooter, he would start a movement that “it’s just not fair” that Master Class shooters are so damn good, so we need to give them a haircut with a handicap system. Your 96? It just became an 86 under the M class -10 bird “it’s not fair” program. Another outright failure of the “Participation Trophy Generation”.


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And some just don't have any interest in turning their weekend hobby into a job.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 2:43 pm 
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mwr01 wrote:
CubaLibre wrote:
It’s amazing that a topic such as this that would get 0% traction in real life. At a sporting clays competition most would just laugh this off, including myself. Now all of a sudden, it becomes a tractor pull topic on the internet. -Guys are obviously bored; pontificating on the topic to no end here.

Most “Lower” class shooters aren’t willing to put the time, the dedication or the money to become a better shooter. -I did not say “good”. If most deem “good” to be in Master class, then so be it. This is a ruthless game of individualism and innovation of your own skill set. It is up to each individual to fight their way up the class system through hard work. Most will not and are too lazy, don’t want to do the work that it takes to get there. Most have no concept of just what it takes and the sacrifices that are made to achieve the goal on the road to great shooting.

If Bernie Sanders became a Sporting Clays shooter, he would start a movement that “it’s just not fair” that Master Class shooters are so damn good, so we need to give them a haircut with a handicap system. Your 96? It just became an 86 under the M class -10 bird “it’s not fair” program. Another outright failure of the “Participation Trophy Generation”.


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And some just don't have any interest in turning their weekend hobby into a job.


Very true, and great point.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 3:06 pm 
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mwr01 wrote:
And some just don't have any interest in turning their weekend hobby into a job.


A LOT more than "some" :wink: :)

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 4:29 pm 
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There are many reasons why some folks start shooting registered birds and then just stop;
time, money, etc. I think one of the main reasons is someone to shoot/compete with.

I have personally started several shooters. Most would shoot when they had someone else to squad with but would not just go to a new shoot by themselves. It has always been fun for me to watch new shooters progress through this game.

Just the smile on their face after figuring out how to shoot a tougher target is a great reward to me. As One oz. says, it was much easier to earn a punch down in "real" FL, here in the Panhandle, not as easy!

We are trying something different at our club next month. "Shoot for Punches" is one 100 bird event and nine 50 bird events just to help newer shooters earn a punch or two and not take as many shots or cost as much. More targets shot, the cheaper they get and you can shoot over two days.

http://app.scoringpro.com/public/tourna ... 8xvyL5laRu

We hope it will be fun and bring out some newer shooters!

pk (not in IND any ore) :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 07, 2020 9:24 pm 
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After reading 10 pages I think I’m just inclined to leave well enough alone. Shooters will come and go. As long as there is a variety in the game it will give sporting clays the advantage over skeet and trap where everything is exactly the same. I started shooting registered after a couple of charity events because I wanted to see how I would do. I was throughly bitten by the bug. Have a great day !


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:24 am 
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With any hobby you can figure on 30%/40% of the new participants to lose interest or not continue on for some reason. And in the clay shooting games you have a serious issue with cost shooting registered targets. I've only been doing this for 12 years. All these ideas are nothing new. Nothing has changed except costs. I would like to know how many of the complimentary memberships renew and stick for 2-3 years.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 7:56 am 
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lt0026 wrote:
With any hobby you can figure on 30%/40% of the new participants to lose interest or not continue on for some reason. And in the clay shooting games you have a serious issue with cost shooting registered targets. I've only been doing this for 12 years. All these ideas are nothing new. Nothing has changed except costs. I would like to know how many of the complimentary memberships renew and stick for 2-3 years.


I too would be interested in knowing what the attrition rate is. I don't know how NSCA's membership database is constructed, but that should be a quick easy run in virtually any system. Frankly, I would be surprised if the Association were not doing that analysis annually. I suspect that they just choose not to publish the results.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:05 am 
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mwr01 wrote:
lt0026 wrote:
With any hobby you can figure on 30%/40% of the new participants to lose interest or not continue on for some reason. And in the clay shooting games you have a serious issue with cost shooting registered targets. I've only been doing this for 12 years. All these ideas are nothing new. Nothing has changed except costs. I would like to know how many of the complimentary memberships renew and stick for 2-3 years.


I too would be interested in knowing what the attrition rate is. I don't know how NSCA's membership database is constructed, but that should be a quick easy run in virtually any system. Frankly, I would be surprised if the Association were not doing that analysis annually. I suspect that they just choose not to publish the results.

Agree. Some evaluation of the program is warranted to see if giving something away is benefiting the organization. And the evaluation made available to the members.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 8:40 am 
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lt0026 wrote:
And the evaluation made available to the members.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

They'd only share that if they actually wanted our input -- and I think it's become pretty clear the NSCA doesn't have any interest in hearing what we think about much of anything relating to the sport or organization.

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:11 am 
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lt0026 wrote:
Nothing has changed except costs.


I think the biggest change has been in target difficulty. And for the most part, that is good. In total, it has made the game better.

But I’ll never forget what a shooting buddy who went to the Worlds at Northbrook said when he came home.

“To be successful and compete shooting those targets, you have to dedicate your life to shooting sporting clays. I saw so many targets that I’ve never seen before, and therefore never even practiced. Not only that, many of which were thrown as true pairs. And all of the targets were extreme. If I can’t compete, I ain’t going and waste $3200”.

This from one of the very best shooters I know. He went on a week long fishing trip 3 weeks later, and spent $2500, and had a fantastic time. Hasn’t shot a registered target since.

So, let’s keep the tougher targets coming. They are a good thing for the growth of the sport. But too much of a good thing can come back and bite you in the @$$.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:19 am 
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mwr01 wrote:
And some just don't have any interest in turning their weekend hobby into a job.


Lot to be said about this.

The failure of the Pro Tour showed the Elite shooters can’t make it outside of the masses. They need the masses to support their stage.

The bigger mass of shooters warrants and deserves more consideration.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 9:21 am 
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The NSCA doesn't regulate target difficulty. Look at the big picture. What does the entire game need to change for an increase attendance at registered shoots. Once again, I've been hearing the same worn out comments and slogans for over 10 years. This has nothing to do with class or targets. The average shooter never goes to the Worlds,US Open or Nationals.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:29 am 
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Assuming you can afford it (means) and have places to shoot (opportunity), the motive remains as long as one is having a good time (fun factor). I have shot registered SC since 1994, most of the time in C, B, and a long time A. The people I met were a big force in keeping me encouraged. The sense of progress and achievement was what sustained my interest. (Ego factor). Had my best year in 2017 and have had to cut back since. Health, family matters, money, etc. have affected the fun factor in competing. Still shoot regularly but much less registered. Forgive the rambling but I'll bet this describes many players in the game.
bc

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:50 am 
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lt0026 wrote:
The NSCA doesn't regulate target difficulty. Look at the big picture. What does the entire game need to change for an increase attendance at registered shoots.


Pretty simple, and something that's been said over and over again. Make registered shoots be something for every class of shooter. That includes 1/3 or so of the targets being longer and very difficult. Another 1/3 that are in the 30 to 40 yard range, that are highly technical and very challenging. And another 1/3 that are "you better hit all of these if you want to win". You know something for everyone.

Quote:
Once again, I've been hearing the same worn out comments and slogans for over 10 years. This has nothing to do with class or targets. The average shooter never goes to the Worlds,US Open or Nationals.


You hearing is wrong. Targets are a huge component of being successful. And, it's just not the "lower classes" that have shooters running out of steam, and moving on.

Some of the average shooters don't go to the big bangs because the targets are way over their heads. They are not ready to spend a couple grand to shot at targets they aren't ready to take on.

The average shooters are supporting and holding up the stage for the elite guys. They need to be tossed a cookie every once in awhile.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Sat Aug 08, 2020 10:52 am 
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Quote:
Some of the average shooters don't go to the big bangs because the targets are way over their heads. They are not ready to spend a couple grand to shot at targets they aren't ready to take on.


And some do not go simply because of the huge expense



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