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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:40 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:30 am
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the club I shoot has an exploding target. you pay a $10 option and if you hit it you win the jack pot.if no one hits it the money rolls over to the next shoot . its been bringing more and more shooters out every tournament .our jack pot is over $ 1000 now.




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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:43 am 
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Posts: 584
I've learned that when you pair new shooters together in the same class, they can "bond" over the course, and basically learn from each other, and or some will support each other and grind through the events together.

I agree with the get to them attitude, as if you snub them down and or look down on anyone getting into the sport, and treat them as such, they will find something new.......and they will find something new quickly.

If a new shooter doesn't feel part of the community and doesn't have a sense of belonging and or being part of something........then they will pack it up and move about their business.

There was a time and a shoot ago, when we were all new too, reflect on the time you spent as a new shooter, and what some help meant to you. A few guys took me under their wing, and made sure I was squadded with them, and or knew the rules, and how to shoot the various games, then they worked with me on skill building.

I've often though that clubs should have a shoot out for new shooters, make it so that only shooters in say D, C, B can compete in one special event as a pool. I know your alienating a class of shooters, then have a A-AA-Master class event where only shooters in those classes can participate. Do like a 50 bird class challenge and set two fields of 5 stand.

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Last edited by gdub41 on Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:58 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:53 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2016 1:20 pm
Posts: 210
Location: Kingwood TX
hopper810 wrote:
Island Shooter wrote:
If you want to support the lower classes, my suggestion is to actively upclass the shooters to their proper levels. When you regularly see posted scores that show upper 80's and low 90's in C, D & E Classes, it is not helpful to those who are just starting their journeys up through the ranks.

How can D-C Class shooters, just starting out or learning the ropes, get punches when the very good shooters are beating their brains out with scores typical of AA or A Class? This is not only discouraging to those in the lower classes, but it also scares many away from joining NSCA or shooting tournaments.

If you are posting scores typical of the upper classes, do yourself and all others a favor and self-declare to where you belong! If you need help deciding on what class to upgrade to, call the staffers at NSCA who can look at your record and make great recommendations.

JMHO,

Demi


Demi nailed it IMO {hs# I shot in a several (local) NSCA shoots over a few years and decided early this year what's the point? In my area East TX I would (from looking at the overall scores) after a shoot and to even get a sniff of a punch I needed to have shot AA or low M class scores. Those folks would move up quick then another new batch would join and the unending cycle would begin again.

So now instead of competing I work/help at my local Club with their monthly shoots and get more satisfaction from doing that than basically handing my entry fee's to someone :shock:


X2 100%agree

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:34 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:49 pm
Posts: 3055
Wow, there’s really good stuff offered here. Extremely well said by many guys of experience and knowledge.

Agree very much that the trio of cost, time, and commitment chase people away — especially the young crowd. But that is what it is, and there’s really not much one can do about that. Yet, when getting started in life with car, house, and education loans to service, plus the time commitment of raising kids and being active in their schooling and sports usually don’t leave much room for what needs to be done if one wants to be active in competitive sporting clays. That too is just the way it is, and there’s not much that can be done about it.

The game still needs to be fun for those who do find away to get involved. I believe there’s way too much put into what the top 25 or 30 shooters in the country want to see versus what works best for the other 99% of the shooters.

To the point, everyone wants to be challenged. No one wants any cupcake targets. We all want to work at our game to get better. But a good shooter who spends a lot of time and money on the sport, does not want to spend $3000 to travel and shoot a Big Blast and have 28 stations of knock your dick in the dirt targets, and go home unhappy. Sera said it best with “most of the big shoots are aimed at the top shooters and the rest are expected to shut their mouths and just take a whipping”.

The younger guys, with each generation, keep getting better and better. The older guys are still dealing with Father Time. I just think the game needs more focus on what works for the majority of shooters. Tough, challenging birds, for sure. But not so many separators aimed at the top 25 dogs.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:45 pm 
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Quote:
To the point, everyone wants to be challenged. No one wants any cupcake targets. We all want to work at our game to get better. But a good shooter who spends a lot of time and money on the sport, does not want to spend $3000 to travel and shoot a Big Blast and have 28 stations of knock your dick in the dirt targets, and go home unhappy. Sera said it best with “most of the big shoots are aimed at the top shooters and the rest are expected to shut their mouths and just take a whipping”.


Good setters can set targets that can be challenging without being extreme, even for the lower classes. One easy and one hard, two medium, some combination of the above; the top dogs will still get their 97, while the D, C, B guys can get 60s and 70s and break some at every station

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:22 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 13, 2015 6:59 pm
Posts: 40
Good thread. Very good points on up-classing.

Money is everything. I shot 6K registered targets last year and I even sometimes question it. I can shoot the same targets (often poorly) for half the price at some shoots if I was not doing registered. That being said, I understand the value of mandatory purses.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:40 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:21 pm
Posts: 629
I'm a relatively new shooter, and I agree that the number of sandbaggers, particularly at big shoots, is a big detractor. It's at the point where it doesn't make sense for me to pay $90-100 to shoot a local registered shoot doesn't make sense when I can shoot the same targets in Hunter class for only $50 or so. I might as well save my money and stay hunter class until I'm shooting A class scores, then start shooting registered. Registered trap has the same problem, but probably even worse in regard to sandbagging. In ATA, all the tournaments have large target minimums. However, if you actually shoot the large number of targets required, a typical shooter would probably have a hard time *not* shooting themselves out of D class (under 90%). Yet 16 yard D class at big tournaments are almost always won by AA class scores (96.25% to under 98%). I have a hard time believing all of these folks are suddenly having great days at big tournaments. Which means the overwhelming majoring of these folks are probably "target-managing" (aka "sand-bagging") to stay in D class until they can win a bunch of money at a big shoot.
Unfortunately, I don't have any solutions for sandbagging in sporting clays since it's punch-based.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 1:43 pm 
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oneounceload wrote:
Quote:
To the point, everyone wants to be challenged. No one wants any cupcake targets. We all want to work at our game to get better. But a good shooter who spends a lot of time and money on the sport, does not want to spend $3000 to travel and shoot a Big Blast and have 28 stations of knock your dick in the dirt targets, and go home unhappy. Sera said it best with “most of the big shoots are aimed at the top shooters and the rest are expected to shut their mouths and just take a whipping”.


Good setters can set targets that can be challenging without being extreme, even for the lower classes. One easy and one hard, two medium, some combination of the above; the top dogs will still get their 97, while the D, C, B guys can get 60s and 70s and break some at every station


That exactly what we need more of, and address my point perfectly. We do, however, seem to be drifting away from that. Not good for the mass.


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 Post subject: what can we do to support lower class registered shooters???
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:05 pm 
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There’s always going to people that try it and either find it is a bigger drag on their time than they thought because they have a young family or it really is something that is out of their budget for entertainment.

Look at the demographic, more shooters are either single, have no kids, have a family but can afford it or they retired and have prioritized their time and money for shooting.

People that quit just because they’re not winning are either not being realistic about why they are there in the first place or just decide to move on to something else they can be more successful at. Many people don’t want to put in the work it takes to get their gun fit properly if that’s necessary or they don’t practice like they’d need to so they can improve.

No biggie.

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:26 pm 
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mpolans wrote:
I'm a relatively new shooter, >>SNIP<< I might as well save my money and stay hunter class until I'm shooting A class scores, then start shooting registered.


This ^^^ right here perfectly sums up the problem, and more importantly also underscores the obvious and intelligent solution --- and it's a solution that does not encourage participation in registered events at the lower class levels...

If I were younger and had the same financial restrictions I had as a younger family man, that right there would be my strategy too...

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:35 pm 
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Hunter class and NSCA members should be paying the same entry fees according to the rule book.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:37 pm 
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At least 90% of shotgun shooters do not compete in NSCA events, May be closer to 95% in my experience.

The classification scheme is supposed to pit people of like ability with each other. Clearly that does not happen.

If everyone in the NSCA declared up to AA class as they are entitled to do, it would allow people to see where their skills positioned them compared to others.

Sera speaks wisely of the past listen to him

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:38 pm 
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albanygun wrote:
Hunter class and NSCA members should be paying the same entry fees according to the rule book.


I suspect he meant the cost for practicing those same exact targets after the main event.

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:44 pm 
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JacksBack wrote:
mpolans wrote:
I'm a relatively new shooter, >>SNIP<< I might as well save my money and stay hunter class until I'm shooting A class scores, then start shooting registered.


This ^^^ right here perfectly sums up the problem, and more importantly also underscores the obvious and intelligent solution --- and it's a solution that does not encourage participation in registered events at the lower class levels...

If I were younger and had the same financial restrictions I had as a younger family man, that right there would be my strategy too...


And exactly what I did for years before friends started shooting registered and then convinced me to join.

Quote:
Hunter class and NSCA members should be paying the same entry fees according to the rule book.


True, but some places also offer "Targets Only" at a lower cost. Hunter class makes no sense of you are also paying state and NSCA fees in your payment.
Hunter class should be no more than the reduced fee they charge for juniors and ladies.

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:38 pm 
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dcblvsh2 wrote:

People that quit just because they’re not winning are either not being realistic about why they are there in the first place or just decide to move on to something else they can be more successful at. Many people don’t want to put in the work it takes to get their gun fit properly if that’s necessary or they don’t practice like they’d need to so they can improve.



I've found that when people quit, it usually about money or time restrictions. Or, so many times, it's they aren't having fun anymore. And for the money they've been spending, they look for something that's more entertaining for them.

Plenty of us older guys rarely win anymore, but we still are having fun. So we stay, but I'm not going to spend $3000 to go to the Worlds and get it all handed to me trying to hit extreme targets I've never seen before or had any chance to practice. That's not any fun.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:00 pm 
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From the Rule Book
Quote:
Non-members may participate, but in a separate category. Any non-member participating in a registered event in a separate category (Hunter Class) shall not be eligible for any NSCA awards or monies. If offered by shoot management, the separate category (Hunter Class) may have its own separate awards and/or monies. Hunter class shooters at events run concurrently with registered NSCA events will be charged the same entry fees as those paid by NSCA members including all target fees. Examples: If the total entry fee for an event is $65, including NSCA and state fees, then anyone shooting Hunter Class would also pay $65 to participate in the event. As the portion of the entry fee that would otherwise represent fees to the NSCA and/or state association would not be paid to these organizations, it shall be retained by the club.


I read this as non-members may participate, and are in a separate category/class, and if they do they participate that they are charged the same as a registered shooter. I don't see an option of allowing targets only at a reduced cost (though - I often see this at a few clubs I used to frequent) When I run a shoot I tell everyone upfront (nicely and encouraging them to register) that if you want to shoot the targets today, you pay just like everyone else - NSCA will give you a free membership if you want it, but you are paying the same as the registered shooter in line behind you. If you want to come back on Sunday, please do, and shoot at the standard per target fee off of your count down card - but we will be pulling 4 stations at the end of the day ( we need the traps and don't have a ton of space - not done maliciously)

I would say that we are 50/50 on takers of the free membership to NSCA. We shoot an area of the grounds only during registered events and it does give some people access to areas that they would not normally see targets at.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:01 pm 
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Good comments Mule.

I'm intrigued by mention of a 50 bird event, E-C class. That, would get folks attention. What it could lead to though, is that it could push them up the ladder faster then they should....depending on the set. Then again, they may not care. I don't know, something I'll think on.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:28 pm 
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MTR wrote:
From the Rule Book
Quote:
Non-members may participate, but in a separate category. Any non-member participating in a registered event in a separate category (Hunter Class) shall not be eligible for any NSCA awards or monies. If offered by shoot management, the separate category (Hunter Class) may have its own separate awards and/or monies. Hunter class shooters at events run concurrently with registered NSCA events will be charged the same entry fees as those paid by NSCA members including all target fees. Examples: If the total entry fee for an event is $65, including NSCA and state fees, then anyone shooting Hunter Class would also pay $65 to participate in the event. As the portion of the entry fee that would otherwise represent fees to the NSCA and/or state association would not be paid to these organizations, it shall be retained by the club.


I read this as non-members may participate, and are in a separate category/class, and if they do they participate that they are charged the same as a registered shooter. I don't see an option of allowing targets only at a reduced cost (though - I often see this at a few clubs I used to frequent) When I run a shoot I tell everyone upfront (nicely and encouraging them to register) that if you want to shoot the targets today, you pay just like everyone else - NSCA will give you a free membership if you want it, but you are paying the same as the registered shooter in line behind you. If you want to come back on Sunday, please do, and shoot at the standard per target fee off of your count down card - but we will be pulling 4 stations at the end of the day ( we need the traps and don't have a ton of space - not done maliciously)

I would say that we are 50/50 on takers of the free membership to NSCA. We shoot an area of the grounds only during registered events and it does give some people access to areas that they would not normally see targets at.


And I am not going to tattle on any club doing it so they can earn a few extra bucks on already tight margins; they hurt no one, they are not officially "there", don't win prizes or punches or even a mention; they don't even turn in their scorecards; as far as I am concerned, that's a no harm, no foul scenario. The club makes some extra money, a shooter gets to shoot, maybe with his buddies who convince him to join (see what I said last post about me), and life goes on.

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 4:58 pm 
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cafowler1000 wrote:

So, question is what can the state organization do to support the lower & Hunter class shooters?


Allow Hunters Class at more shoots.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:03 pm 
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Allow hunter class at the same reduced rates for Junior and Ladies.



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