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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 10:41 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5874
mwr01 wrote:
The conversation was about the method CPSA uses to classify shooters and, tangentially, does CPSA permit SYO. Trickster responded concisely to both questions. Abruptly, the topic changed to "you won't get better if you don't work at it and practice." That is certainly true, but how did we get there from CPSA classification?

Thread drift happens, but that was a sudden change of direction, even for SGW. Clearly, I missed critical detail.

If you feel like it, the previous few pages contain some comments by those who end up tossing the ‘M’ class comments. But there were some very good posts relating to letting new shooters know ‘ain’t no free lunch’ involved as well. AKA, hard work.

Not that much of a drift given that. Depending of course:-)




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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:01 am 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:21 pm
Posts: 5197
Location: UK
The CPSA method only came into it because perdizman wondered what we do differently over here, otherwise I wouldn't have been in the thread.

My guess is that people who choose to quit registered do so for similar reasons irrespective of the system. Some find it too much of step up from club shoots but, apart from young people who develop other hormone based interests, most newcomers stay around and try to improve.

Most of us do seem to reach a plateau in our scores and for the keen competitor who thinks he/she should be a contender, the realisation that they haven't the ability can result in their enthusiasm fading away. I have known a number of people quit shooting simply because they'd got as far as they could.

I have no idea what would work to introduce and retain more newcomers to reg sporting but in my experience new people quickly realise they have a lot of work to do. Having said that, the regulars and the experienced refs are generally very welcoming though and always willing to help and advise.

What other sport has international competitors and world champions shaking hands and offering encouragement to newcomers?

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:26 am 
*Proud to be a*
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Just so you'll know--

1. the board is made up of volunteers
2. I served for 6 yrs.
3. there is no traction for a wholesale modification of the rules
4. they prefer small incremental changes
5. they don't want to get sued
6. the board has very little "authority" over the clubs. Each one is a free agent
7. nationwide marketing is not doable
8. the clubs who agree to throw big shoots and then actually have a track record of doing it well , get the most attention and have the greatest persuasive authority
9. nothing has changed for years
10. most rule changes have come about b/c the clubs thought they would lead to more shooters w/out risking existing shooters
11. no one on the board , as far back as I can recall , has sought any change in the rules b/c some shooter said "I won't shoot til you change your rules".
12. they don't care what you complain about if you are not a member nor are you shooting any targets

Carry on

and

SUAS

_________________
Nsca # 540300. Been loving this game since 01.

Our prentice Tom may now refuse
To wipe his scoundrel master's shoes
For now he's free to sing and play
O'er the hills and far away.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 4:27 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5594
Just think. If the election goes a certain way you won't need to worry about this stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 5:40 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:37 pm
Posts: 1045
Location: colorado
The way I see it, the whole system is set up to reward people who want to move up and get better. It is not set up to allow competition of like skilled shooters. This means it only appeals to people who want to move up and prove they can be M or AA class shooters.

As a more rec level shooter I don’t care if I ever get to the AA or M level. I have too many other hobbies to dedicate the required time to make M. Since registered doesn’t really offer me what I am looking for I no longer do it. Instead I spend my money on other hobbies to get my competitive fix. I do still shoot clays, but a round here or there just for fun.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 6:05 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:20 pm
Posts: 22705
Quote:
12. they don't care what you complain about if you are not a member nor are you shooting any targets


They also don't seem to care if you are a member and are shooting targets......

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The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory, Aldo Gucci

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:47 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:02 am
Posts: 2470
Location: KS
Rooster booster wrote:
mwr01 wrote:
The conversation was about the method CPSA uses to classify shooters and, tangentially, does CPSA permit SYO. Trickster responded concisely to both questions. Abruptly, the topic changed to "you won't get better if you don't work at it and practice." That is certainly true, but how did we get there from CPSA classification?

Thread drift happens, but that was a sudden change of direction, even for SGW. Clearly, I missed critical detail.

If you feel like it, the previous few pages contain some comments by those who end up tossing the ‘M’ class comments. But there were some very good posts relating to letting new shooters know ‘ain’t no free lunch’ involved as well. AKA, hard work.

Not that much of a drift given that. Depending of course:-)


Got it. “Drift” was to previous posts. It was really early when I commented and only partially through first cup of coffee. I should probably make it policy not to say anything to anybody, including the cat, until second cup has kicked in:)


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:53 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5874
Only two!?......I only need one, but sometimes just drink from the coffee maker:-)


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Thu Aug 13, 2020 8:22 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:02 am
Posts: 2470
Location: KS
Adopted two-cup rule many years ago. Somewhere between two and three cups of Army coffee one passed from full situational awareness to severe neurotoxicity;)


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:34 am 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:21 pm
Posts: 5197
Location: UK
mwr01 wrote:
Adopted two-cup rule many years ago. Somewhere between two and three cups of Army coffee one passed from full situational awareness to severe neurotoxicity;)
Now that's what I call thread drift. :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:41 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:02 am
Posts: 2470
Location: KS
Yup, so stark that I recognized it when I did it - just could not resist :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:16 am 
*Proud to be a*
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one ounce--If you want to be heard, get involved. Become a delegate , go to the meetings. Volunteer to do something, then do it.

Sniping on here will mean NO ONE but you cares, if you even care and are not just trolling.

There are great people on the board. Once you get to know them you will agree w/ what I am saying.

_________________
Nsca # 540300. Been loving this game since 01.

Our prentice Tom may now refuse
To wipe his scoundrel master's shoes
For now he's free to sing and play
O'er the hills and far away.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:43 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:20 pm
Posts: 22705
Who said I disagreed with you?

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The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory, Aldo Gucci

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:05 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:42 pm
Posts: 715
oneounceload wrote:
Who said I disagreed with you?


It's not "what" you said but the "way" you said it! :lol: :lol: :lol: {hs#

I hear that ALL the time!

Carry on! :D :D

pk


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Sun Aug 16, 2020 4:10 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:02 am
Posts: 47
I think a good way to frame this conversation is "what could the NSCA or individual clubs that put on NSCA registered shoots do get more recreational to shoot registered targets and keep coming back thereby increasing the revenue of both the clubs and the NSCA." If viewed from that perspective the comments like "suck it up", too PC, ect no longer have merit.....any comment basically means you think the system is maximized to best it can be for shooter retention and revenue generation. Clearly that is not the case and will never be the case. In business of any type if always keep everything the same and think you have figured out the best mouse trap you are actually on a slow ride to be extinct....without new thought, methods, and constant willingness to change ultimate success will forever be elusive.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:41 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:26 pm
Posts: 3
I‘ve been lurking on this board for a while, but this threat finally made me feel the need to post. I’m a woman in my 30s who picked up her first gun (of any variety) less than two years ago but has developed a love for this game. Other shooters/instructors tell me I’m talented, but I live in a major metro area, work a 9-5 job downtown with no flexibility, and my closest range is 45 mins without traffic...2 hours with traffic during pre-COVID times. This means I shoot on weekends and have limitations on my ability to progress rapidly. I’m also a life long competitive athlete who would love to start competing in this sport, but is hesitant to do so for many reasons already discussed here.

The biggest problem I see with supporting new/lower classed shooters with more limited experience or limited abilities is that this sport makes shooters like me and others newer to the game (or just not as good) compete on the same field of play (same targets) as pros. I can’t think of any other sports where this happens. Usually new/less experienced/less skilled competitors are given a field of play appropriate for that skill level, and the field of play gets more advanced as you progress. This does not happen with sporting clays, or any shooting sports really. The best way to support these shooters and keep them members of a competitive governing body is to offer them chances to compete that are appropriate for their level and where they have opportunities to be successful. This is where I think the Northbrook green shoots really got it right. Forget messing with the class system...keep it as is for that level of shoot, and maybe look at ways to offer competition that shooters of lower skill/experience can enter, enjoy, and feel good about as they work their way to the next level. Every other sport I’ve been a part of works this way, it’s a shame NSCA isn’t the same. It’s not encouraging to show up as a new shooter, shoot the same targets as are meant to be competitive for M/AA, shoot a 50, and feel like you want to come back next time...it just feels embarrassing and like failure, even if it may be totally appropriate for your level of experience.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 10:09 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:26 pm
Posts: 3
Hi All. I'm a new shooter and have been lurking around here for a minute. I know I'm a little late to the party on this, but, as I'm a new shooter who would like to compete, wanted to share my perspective.

I'm a life-long competitive athlete, in my 30s, and a woman who shot a gun for the first time a little less than two years ago. Fell in love with shooting sporting clays, and would really like to compete. But it is ridiculous to me that this sport asks brand new shooters with limited skills and experience to compete on the same field of play (same targets) as pros and other M/AA shooters. Every other sport I've been involved in has athletes of like experience and ability competing on a field of play appropriate for that skill level.

This is a long way of saying if NSCA wanted to better support lower class/new shooters, in my opinion they should expand on Northbrook's concept of the green shoots. Keep the current structure for the regular NSCA shoots as it is, but offer newer/less experienced/less skilled shooters the chance to compete on targets more appropriate for them, giving them a chance to get their feet wet in a competitive environment and have an opportunity to potentially have success and shoot scores that can help build confidence and sustain interest. If I show up to a registered shoot and shoot at 55, that may be great for E class, but it also feels like I just lost by 40. Not a great way to get people to stick around long term. More shoots aimed towards more novice shooters would, in my opinion, be a great way to get folks in, get them to stick around with NSCA membership, and get them working towards moving towards the the regular NSCA shoots we have now.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 12:24 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:50 pm
Posts: 359
Beach, newer shooters should EXPECT to shoot poorly compared to those in AA/M. My home club, and most others I frequent have a softer and a harder course. When I began this journey, I was afraid of the tougher, longer, trickier targets. I now seek them out. (I'm frequently humbled as well, and that's ok)

I hope you give the informal competition that registered targets offer a try. You'll meet some really good folks, and have a hell of a lot of fun in the process.

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 3:34 pm 
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Belle--I get what you are saying.

NSCA cannot "force" the clubs to do anything. The Green course concept came from the owner/mgr at that club. Tell your local clubs to set up a few more beginner courses. If it works for them , they'll keep doing it.

What many clubs have found is that the only dedicated shooters who come out rain or shine, hard or soft , is the M class shooters. SO --they get the targets that they like.

Also find the other shooters in your class and --before a tournament--mass text them that "we all need to be at the club , so we can all shoot against each other." This actually works.

_________________
Nsca # 540300. Been loving this game since 01.

Our prentice Tom may now refuse
To wipe his scoundrel master's shoes
For now he's free to sing and play
O'er the hills and far away.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Wed Aug 19, 2020 6:16 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2020 11:26 pm
Posts: 3
Understand that newer shooters should expect to shoot low scores on registered targets. I get it, and as a seasoned competitor I don't mind. I'm used the idea that you usually suck at something when you are new. But y'all started a thread on what you can do to support lower class registered shooters, and as one of those folks (although I haven't registered yet), I'm telling you my opinion. If NSCA would consider sanctioning events and encouraging clubs to host maybe one or two shoots a year of a different level, you may get more folks who wanted to be NSCA members and ease their way in to competition while supporting NSCA in the process. I get not wanting to give everyone a participation trophy, but at the same time, if people consistently don't feel good about what they are doing, good luck getting them to stick around. Sports usually don't work that way. Give lower ability shooters a place to hone skills, start getting competitive, and feel good about doing it, you may have a better chance to get them to stick with it. Sports (and national governing bodies) thrive when they can cater to athletes of all skills and abilities who are interested. If they can't, they usually don't have much success in growing memberships.

Personally, I don't really struggle with most targets at our local clubs, and they set a good range for all skill levels. But I don't have much experience shooting for scores, which is an entirely different animal than a day out at the club. And the thought of going out to a registered shoot and shooting what generally looks like an embarrassing score, even if its reasonable for a new shooter, definitely holds me and my shooting friends back from wanting to shoot registered. So instead we're focusing on getting our feet wet shooting local charity shoots...but if there were NSCA shoots of comparable skill levels, we would absolutely register and shoot those instead. I guess I just feel NSCA is missing a large portion of the demographic they could be getting.

Also, apologies for the double post above. Was posting from my phone and having some issues. I swear I'm not trying to be annoying!




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