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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:17 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:02 pm
Posts: 16
With a points-based class system, one can't shoot a lot and not go up in class. To shoot a lot and to remain in C or D would mean a lot of poor shooting. Not many are willing to pay registered shoot costs (time, effort, money) to do a lot of poor shooting.




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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:49 pm 
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J.Fred_Muggs wrote:
With a points-based class system, one can't shoot a lot and not go up in class. To shoot a lot and to remain in C or D would mean a lot of poor shooting. Not many are willing to pay registered shoot costs (time, effort, money) to do a lot of poor shooting.


I know a few like that; one of whom is in his mid-late 80s so he will never do better than what he is currently doing, but at his age, I just hope to be breathing and upright. I applaud him for spending the time and money to shoot even though he is far from competitive, even in E class.

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Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


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 Post subject: what can we do to support lower class registered shooters???
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:00 pm 
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It sounds like a number of people want a participation ribbon. Just like our kids are learning.

You have to pay if you want to play.

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Tue Jul 28, 2020 9:22 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:21 pm
Posts: 630
JacksBack wrote:
albanygun wrote:
Hunter class and NSCA members should be paying the same entry fees according to the rule book.


I suspect he meant the cost for practicing those same exact targets after the main event.

Nope. I've shot Hunter (no prizes) for less than registered. If they moved to making the price the same, it wouldn't be worth it for me to show up for the shoot; I'd just show up the next day and shoot the same course for even less and just compare my scores to the final standings to see where I would've ended up.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:22 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2014 8:26 pm
Posts: 310
oneounceload wrote:
J.Fred_Muggs wrote:
With a points-based class system, one can't shoot a lot and not go up in class. To shoot a lot and to remain in C or D would mean a lot of poor shooting. Not many are willing to pay registered shoot costs (time, effort, money) to do a lot of poor shooting.


I know a few like that; one of whom is in his mid-late 80s so he will never do better than what he is currently doing, but at his age, I just hope to be breathing and upright. I applaud him for spending the time and money to shoot even though he is far from competitive, even in E class.


The high volume registered shooters that win are not a lot better off. Everyone is spending time and money. Some are getting a few bucks back.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:46 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:02 pm
Posts: 16
If I "Cross-fired" from NSSA to NSCA I would start in Class A. No thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 1:22 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 11:49 am
Posts: 5378
Location: Southwest Georgia, USA
A NSSA member can shoot registered sporting clays targets in Hunter class and you do not have to register your targets. "The first time you shoot under the Crossfire program at an event, you have the option of shooting as a registered shooter and registering your targets OR shooting in Hunter Class and not registering your targets. However, as soon as you decide to shoot registered targets, you MUST register all other targets in that discipline for the rest of the shoot year. At the beginning of each new shoot year, the process starts over; you have the option to register the targets or shoot Hunter Class until you actually decide to shoot registered targets."
You can also ask for a class review after 300 registered targets. So start off as a Hunter and see where you place. http://nssa-nsca.org/crossfire-program/


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 4:52 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:50 pm
Posts: 308
J.Fred_Muggs wrote:
With a points-based class system, one can't shoot a lot and not go up in class. To shoot a lot and to remain in C or D would mean a lot of poor shooting. Not many are willing to pay registered shoot costs (time, effort, money) to do a lot of poor shooting.


Define "a lot". D and C remain pretty damn competitive with a good number of shooters around here. There always seems to be some hotshot that prevails even when you put up a decent number. When C and D guys are putting up A and AA scores it gets a little frustrating.

The answer is to practice more and better. And become the hotshot.

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:50 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:10 am
Posts: 148
gdub41 wrote:
I've learned that when you pair new shooters together in the same class, they can "bond" over the course, and basically learn from each other, and or some will support each other and grind through the events together.

I agree with the get to them attitude, as if you snub them down and or look down on anyone getting into the sport, and treat them as such, they will find something new.......and they will find something new quickly.

If a new shooter doesn't feel part of the community and doesn't have a sense of belonging and or being part of something........then they will pack it up and move about their business.

There was a time and a shoot ago, when we were all new too, reflect on the time you spent as a new shooter, and what some help meant to you. A few guys took me under their wing, and made sure I was squadded with them, and or knew the rules, and how to shoot the various games, then they worked with me on skill building.

I've often though that clubs should have a shoot out for new shooters, make it so that only shooters in say D, C, B can compete in one special event as a pool. I know your alienating a class of shooters, then have a A-AA-Master class event where only shooters in those classes can participate. Do like a 50 bird class challenge and set two fields of 5 stand.


Northbrook started "Green" shoots in 2019, easier targets, ability for new shooters to get some advise, rule and etiquette input from staff. These shoots are great and they attract a lot of new shooters. More clubs need "Green" shoots.

I am a newer shooter, started in 2017 and currently in B class. I have been in competitive sports since I was 12. Raced motorcycles for 18 years, raced bicycles for 12, 4 years on a regional Trek team and competed in Open class racquetball. At no time did the equipment I used get criticized when starting out. Shooting is the only sport I know where the cost of the equipment corresponds to your ability. As a newby there is nothing worse then being told your equipment is junk. While this is just a few it is enough to be felt. This needs to end, be kind to new shooters, help, teach but being critical of the gun they shoot is just bad.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 6:57 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:20 pm
Posts: 22130
J.Fred_Muggs wrote:
If I "Cross-fired" from NSSA to NSCA I would start in Class A. No thanks.

Why? A class is not at the same level score -wise

_________________
The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory, Aldo Gucci

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 9:01 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:29 pm
Posts: 2615
Location: Central Maine
Joeracer44 wrote:
gdub41 wrote:
I've learned that when you pair new shooters together in the same class, they can "bond" over the course, and basically learn from each other, and or some will support each other and grind through the events together.

I agree with the get to them attitude, as if you snub them down and or look down on anyone getting into the sport, and treat them as such, they will find something new.......and they will find something new quickly.

If a new shooter doesn't feel part of the community and doesn't have a sense of belonging and or being part of something........then they will pack it up and move about their business.

There was a time and a shoot ago, when we were all new too, reflect on the time you spent as a new shooter, and what some help meant to you. A few guys took me under their wing, and made sure I was squadded with them, and or knew the rules, and how to shoot the various games, then they worked with me on skill building.

I've often though that clubs should have a shoot out for new shooters, make it so that only shooters in say D, C, B can compete in one special event as a pool. I know your alienating a class of shooters, then have a A-AA-Master class event where only shooters in those classes can participate. Do like a 50 bird class challenge and set two fields of 5 stand.


Northbrook started "Green" shoots in 2019, easier targets, ability for new shooters to get some advise, rule and etiquette input from staff. These shoots are great and they attract a lot of new shooters. More clubs need "Green" shoots.

I am a newer shooter, started in 2017 and currently in B class. I have been in competitive sports since I was 12. Raced motorcycles for 18 years, raced bicycles for 12, 4 years on a regional Trek team and competed in Open class racquetball. At no time did the equipment I used get criticized when starting out. Shooting is the only sport I know where the cost of the equipment corresponds to your ability. As a newby there is nothing worse then being told your equipment is junk. While this is just a few it is enough to be felt. This needs to end, be kind to new shooters, help, teach but being critical of the gun they shoot is just bad.


Am sorry you if you got this kind of crap from anyone about equipment. I have seen in 11 years some incredibly gifted shooters using some of the more basic forms of shotguns or inexpensive ones and putting up competitive or winning scores. I have also probably seen more shooters with high end $10K to $20K guns that were really not very good at the game.

It is every shooters right to use whatever gun they feel is their best choice. I have witnessed lots of teasing and ribbing about equipment among shooters that know each other but have never to best of my memory observed someone belittling another shooter. That would be very rude certainly.

When my son and I took up sporting together 11 years ago, the first 6 months we shot in registered events we both shot my old Beretta 303 duck gun or I shot that and my son shot his benelli Nova. We did ok and worked our way up thru the classes to M. We no longer share a shotgun anyway :lol:

We have had fun along the way....lots of it and that hopefully is what comes your way as well. Enjoy the journey.

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Browning Citori Crossover Target
Remington 1100 Sporting 20 and 28 gauge
Release Triggers by Phillip's Gunsmithing

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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:23 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:44 pm
Posts: 140
Location: Lowcountry of SC
I am 65 years old, hunted and fished my entire walking life. I got a 410 when I was 6. Within 2 seasons, I was getting 12 doves within a box of shells with a single shot 410. I have hunted doves, quail, ducks, squirrels, rabbits, and deer a lot. I am a decent hunting shot. I shoot pistols for fun and we have shot clays with modest throwers on the farm for fun. I have spent enough on fishing boats and tackle (both freshwater and saltwater offshore and inshore) to fund a safe with a few high dollar sporting guns, tournaments, and club memberships. I am retired and do not have that kind of money now. I still have a 17 ft bay/flats fishing boat for fishing. Nothing fancy, but the fish don't care. I played high school football (4 years, 3 year starter, All conference 2nd team Jr year, 1st team Sr year, and played in a State Championship game), I ran Enduro motorcycles until I fractured my sternum and two thoracic vertebra, was run over by a pick up on the farm, and had two car wrecks that should have killed me. I have 16 fractures (some (farm truck) cost me my early enlistment in OTS after college (with Chemistry and Biology degrees)).

Until I joined the clays club Feb 2020, I had shot 2 official rounds of Sporting Clays at a resort our company owned for entertaining. I mainly fish, haven't hunted in several years, I gave up golf (a business entertainment thing), shut down my photography business in Dec 2019 (opened that in 2017 when I retired), and decided to try this Sporting Clays thing. All my shotguns are "field" guns.

I don't have youth on my side, but I will do what I can to have fun based on health and finances.

But I do not want a participation ribbon!!!!!! I'll earn what I earn!

I shot with a Master level shooter at his invitation in a non-registered fun shoot last week being held at my club. There were two sets for each of the 15 stands. One was easy (singles and a few doubles) and the other was " if you want to work on your game for a tournament" (all doubles, faster). My partner asked what do you want? I said lets shoot your stuff and I'll give it a go. He loaned me one of his Zoli sporting guns (my Browning O/U is in the shop) and coached me along. I got a little better each stand and fell back a few times. I didn't complain about the really sporty targets (35-40 yard jetted midi against the trees below our feet 2nd in a pair, or a Rabbit thrown as a Teal with its tail on fire as the 2nd in a true pair). I'll grow into the tougher stuff. I tried to assimilate his advice and learn. I broke some strictly on instinct, others with proper technique, and a lot my eyes checked the barrel right when I should have pulled the trigger....missed behind. But he helped me understand my failings. I had a great day with a fine teacher. Thanks, Island Shooter!!!

JB


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 Post subject: what can we do to support lower class registered shooters???
PostPosted: Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:51 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 10:37 pm
Posts: 1014
Location: colorado
Island Shooter wrote:
If you want to support the lower classes, my suggestion is to actively upclass the shooters to their proper levels. When you regularly see posted scores that show upper 80's and low 90's in C, D & E Classes, it is not helpful to those who are just starting their journeys up through the ranks.

How can D-C Class shooters, just starting out or learning the ropes, get punches when the very good shooters are beating their brains out with scores typical of AA or A Class? This is not only discouraging to those in the lower classes, but it also scares many away from joining NSCA or shooting tournaments.

If you are posting scores typical of the upper classes, do yourself and all others a favor and self-declare to where you belong! If you need help deciding on what class to upgrade to, call the staffers at NSCA who can look at your record and make great recommendations.

The clubs posting these outrageous scores should also approach and encourage these misplaced shooters about moving up due to "known abilities."

JMHO,

Demi


This is the reason I stopped competing. If you can’t shoot at A class levels you won’t ever do well in the lower classes. Since people are always starting out in the lower classes, so there is an endless supply of good shooter entering the classes. It makes it really hard for a true D or E class shooter to have competition.
Not asking for a trophy for showing up, but it would be nice if I wasn’t missing the podium by 15-20 birds. If I could shoot A class scores, I would shoot A class. I am money ahead to shoot the same course on Monday.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:43 am 
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I don't have a lot of complaints about the NSCA and how they run things, but down classing shooters when they don't shoot a certain amount of registered targets is incorrect.

Just because a shooter doesn't have enough targets does not mean that they don't have the skills.

It happened to me two years in a row. I should have refused the down class, but I didn't. Mostly because of my ignorance of the rule that allowed me to stay in the class I was in.

I won't shoot enough targets this year, as we are moving. Covid-19 will prevent me from being down classed. I won't take the down class again unless my skills deteriorate.

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aka Mr. Tactful.
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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:03 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5181
The punch/classification system is designed to make people shoot more and generate $$. The system does not group shooters of the same ability and doesn't take into account poor performance. This is why Sc's is just a game. Not a true sport.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:16 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 11:49 am
Posts: 5378
Location: Southwest Georgia, USA
dogchaser37, could you explain what you mean by downclassing because you didn't shoot enough targets? I don't think there is a requirement to shoot a certain amount of targets.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:18 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:02 am
Posts: 2404
Location: KS
dogchaser37 wrote:
I don't have a lot of complaints about the NSCA and how they run things, but down classing shooters when they don't shoot a certain amount of registered targets is incorrect.

Just because a shooter doesn't have enough targets does not mean that they don't have the skills.

It happened to me two years in a row. I should have refused the down class, but I didn't. Mostly because of my ignorance of the rule that allowed me to stay in the class I was in.

I won't shoot enough targets this year, as we are moving. Covid-19 will prevent me from being down classed. I won't take the down class again unless my skills deteriorate.


Mark, why not just declare back to where you were before review and down-class?


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:30 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5181
Most people don't declare because it is frowned on by many who will say you didn't earn the higher class.


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:56 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:02 am
Posts: 2404
Location: KS
I understand the psychology, but, in Mark's case, he'd shot his way into "X" class and accepted reduction only because he did not realize that he had another option. Correct the mistake, and move on.

I also recognize that my opinion of NSCA classification is probably an outlier. Personally, I think that punch classes are so sloppy that they are meaningless; so, what difference does it make?


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 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:00 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed May 16, 2018 7:55 am
Posts: 584
Joeracer44 wrote:
gdub41 wrote:
I've learned that when you pair new shooters together in the same class, they can "bond" over the course, and basically learn from each other, and or some will support each other and grind through the events together.

I agree with the get to them attitude, as if you snub them down and or look down on anyone getting into the sport, and treat them as such, they will find something new.......and they will find something new quickly.

If a new shooter doesn't feel part of the community and doesn't have a sense of belonging and or being part of something........then they will pack it up and move about their business.

There was a time and a shoot ago, when we were all new too, reflect on the time you spent as a new shooter, and what some help meant to you. A few guys took me under their wing, and made sure I was squadded with them, and or knew the rules, and how to shoot the various games, then they worked with me on skill building.

I've often though that clubs should have a shoot out for new shooters, make it so that only shooters in say D, C, B can compete in one special event as a pool. I know your alienating a class of shooters, then have a A-AA-Master class event where only shooters in those classes can participate. Do like a 50 bird class challenge and set two fields of 5 stand.


Northbrook started "Green" shoots in 2019, easier targets, ability for new shooters to get some advise, rule and etiquette input from staff. These shoots are great and they attract a lot of new shooters. More clubs need "Green" shoots.

I am a newer shooter, started in 2017 and currently in B class. I have been in competitive sports since I was 12. Raced motorcycles for 18 years, raced bicycles for 12, 4 years on a regional Trek team and competed in Open class racquetball. At no time did the equipment I used get criticized when starting out. Shooting is the only sport I know where the cost of the equipment corresponds to your ability. As a newby there is nothing worse then being told your equipment is junk. While this is just a few it is enough to be felt. This needs to end, be kind to new shooters, help, teach but being critical of the gun they shoot is just bad.



Yes Northbrook knocked it out of the park with the green shoots, and the green fitasc events have been getting alot of entries as well.

In my years of shooting, I have never heard anyone criticize a new shooter for their choice of equipment. I did have someone at a club one time tell me my choice of eyewear was a bad choice, when I asked why he said you should be wearing pillas they are the best, I asked if he was going to buy them for me, and he looked at me weird and drove off in his UTV.

In my honest opinion status symbol purchases will be the death of sporting clays, some people might not ever step foot in the registered shooting arena because of it.



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