ShotGunWorld Shotguns

It is currently Fri Aug 07, 2020 12:59 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Image



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 182 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 10  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:18 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5181
All games have some pretentious participants. Sc's is no different. They are very easy to pick out. Just look at the scores and what they have to say.




Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:38 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:21 pm
Posts: 630
gdub41 wrote:
Joeracer44 wrote:
gdub41 wrote:
I've learned that when you pair new shooters together in the same class, they can "bond" over the course, and basically learn from each other, and or some will support each other and grind through the events together.

I agree with the get to them attitude, as if you snub them down and or look down on anyone getting into the sport, and treat them as such, they will find something new.......and they will find something new quickly.

If a new shooter doesn't feel part of the community and doesn't have a sense of belonging and or being part of something........then they will pack it up and move about their business.

There was a time and a shoot ago, when we were all new too, reflect on the time you spent as a new shooter, and what some help meant to you. A few guys took me under their wing, and made sure I was squadded with them, and or knew the rules, and how to shoot the various games, then they worked with me on skill building.

I've often though that clubs should have a shoot out for new shooters, make it so that only shooters in say D, C, B can compete in one special event as a pool. I know your alienating a class of shooters, then have a A-AA-Master class event where only shooters in those classes can participate. Do like a 50 bird class challenge and set two fields of 5 stand.


Northbrook started "Green" shoots in 2019, easier targets, ability for new shooters to get some advise, rule and etiquette input from staff. These shoots are great and they attract a lot of new shooters. More clubs need "Green" shoots.

I am a newer shooter, started in 2017 and currently in B class. I have been in competitive sports since I was 12. Raced motorcycles for 18 years, raced bicycles for 12, 4 years on a regional Trek team and competed in Open class racquetball. At no time did the equipment I used get criticized when starting out. Shooting is the only sport I know where the cost of the equipment corresponds to your ability. As a newby there is nothing worse then being told your equipment is junk. While this is just a few it is enough to be felt. This needs to end, be kind to new shooters, help, teach but being critical of the gun they shoot is just bad.



Yes Northbrook knocked it out of the park with the green shoots, and the green fitasc events have been getting alot of entries as well.

In my years of shooting, I have never heard anyone criticize a new shooter for their choice of equipment. I did have someone at a club one time tell me my choice of eyewear was a bad choice, when I asked why he said you should be wearing pillas they are the best, I asked if he was going to buy them for me, and he looked at me weird and drove off in his UTV.

In my honest opinion status symbol purchases will be the death of sporting clays, some people might not ever step foot in the registered shooting arena because of it.


I'm relatively new, but folk probably talk crap about my equipment behind my back, but for opposite reasons. I don't have fancy Pillas or a vest, but I did get smoking deals on a used Perazzi and a used fancy Wenig stock that fit me well (neither of which I would ever buy new). But, my scores are still in the high D/low C range. What can I say, I like the Perazzi design, I'm having fun, and I'm slowly improving.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:41 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5355
In my 35 years around sporting, I’ve never heard anyone run down a new shooter for their gear. No one cares what you shoot or how you shoot, so long as you’re safe and polite.

Now, experienced shooters running down friends for their gear choices.....that’s a time honored institution:-)


Last edited by Rooster booster on Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:52 pm 
Tournament Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:45 pm
Posts: 107
Location: St. Louis
Lets punch some holes in this idea......

IF a shooter in A Class or below shoots a score in ANY registered event that is 10-20 birds higher than the next closest competitor in shooters current class, OR

a shooter in A class or below shoots a score in ANY registered event that is high enough to win their current class AND win or earn punches in the 2 classes immediately above the shooters current class, OR

a shooter in A class or below wins their current class AND earns HOA in any registered event, THEN

that shooter MUST DECLARE or SHALL BE moved to the next highest class upon entry into their next registered event.


I used the last possibility because we have had that very scenario in a local monthly shoot this year where a C class shooter won not only their class but also HOA.

Feel free to punch all the holes in it you want, its just a thought that I had today while I was out practicing.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:27 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:20 pm
Posts: 22130
^^^^^^ I like it!

_________________
The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory, Aldo Gucci

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:01 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:56 pm
Posts: 7283
Location: Central CT
Too late now for me to change anything. I went from 'B' class to 'D' class, this was about I have since made my way to 'AA'.

This happened in the 2015/2016 target years.

_________________
Mark

aka Mr. Tactful.
NSCA#544066


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:37 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:44 pm
Posts: 140
Location: Lowcountry of SC
I think the Northbrook Green Shoot and Green FITASC idea has a lot of merit. Significantly higher level shooters mentoring and teaching the rules, etiquette, and subtle parts of the games to newer shooters. Seems it would bolster confidence, good safety practices, and give some framework to build on for folks to have a positive start. It would give them an idea of what good and very good shooters practice to obtain the higher level skills. It could be like the junior programs but for adults. I haven't shot FITASC, Super Sporting, or 5 Stand, but I want to do it before too long. It would be great to have a teaching program for each. Maybe 3-4 sessions per discipline. Participants pay for their shooting and each chip in some amount to give the "instructors" a prepaid target card, ammo, or something.

JB


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:23 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2020 8:02 am
Posts: 4
I am a new NSCA member with one registered event under my belt in D class (66, and 78) got a punch on the red course which I shot on Sunday and just felt more comfortable than the 66 I shot on Saturday on Blue course (same targets different stand locations and menu). Ultimately I think a lot of good ideas have been shared. I shot sporting clays for the 1st time about 2 years ago but only over the last 8 months or so started shooting regularly enough to want to join and shoot registered shoots. My opinion based on reviewing the number of participants per class and the scores per class is that there are too many classes and they greatly overlap in skill and experience level. I think 4 classes is plenty and Master class should be harder to keep. I see more than half the field being master and the lower master scores being well below winning AA, A, and even B or C class scores. I like the rule suggestion on forced up classing and the Green course concept at Northbrook (never shot there). The more things done to have people shooting against people near there level the better.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 9:40 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5181
We already have a known ability rule. And we have rules for people coming in from other clay's games. The clubs and delegates won't use known ability for the most part. They tell the people getting the snot kicked out of them they need to get better. Anything that might discourage people from shooting again will never happen. It's not about fairness, it's about the $$$. This shoot where C class won HOA was that one of the "fun shoots" with no trappers?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:21 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:09 pm
Posts: 5304
Location: Omaha, NE
IL Duckshewter wrote:
Lets punch some holes in this idea......

IF a shooter in A Class or below shoots a score in ANY registered event that is 10-20 birds higher than the next closest competitor in shooters current class, OR

a shooter in A class or below shoots a score in ANY registered event that is high enough to win their current class AND win or earn punches in the 2 classes immediately above the shooters current class, OR

a shooter in A class or below wins their current class AND earns HOA in any registered event, THEN

that shooter MUST DECLARE or SHALL BE moved to the next highest class upon entry into their next registered event.


I used the last possibility because we have had that very scenario in a local monthly shoot this year where a C class shooter won not only their class but also HOA.

Feel free to punch all the holes in it you want, its just a thought that I had today while I was out practicing.



I'd be OK with that rule, but need to have some minimum number of shooters. Couple years back I was HOA in a 20 ga event at a monthly shoot ( I was in A or B class) but there were only 5 shooters doing that event. Not sure I should move up in class because I beat one M and AA shooter and two D class guys.

_________________
Jim

Eye on the rock, head on the stock.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:42 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2010 1:27 am
Posts: 8017
Location: Silicon Valley
You guys continue to miss the whole reason behind the punch and class system. It's not about making a fair and reliable measure of one's shooting ability (especially in the lower classes), it's about generating additional revenue for clubs, state SCA's and the NSCA, as it allows room for the casual or non-competitive shooters who don't mind remaining in D or C or B class a way to have fun and compete with other shooters of similar (but not identical) skill levels.

In that, I think it's actually a good system. But it is not ever going to be a 100% "fair and reliable" way to classify ALL shooters. Once you hit M class, then it does a pretty decent and reliable job of properly separating -- aside from the downclass issue. My solution for that is to force it after two contiguous years of being stuck in the bottom 25% ...

_________________
Jack
NSCA #617422

When the mind is right, the body will find a way...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:59 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:20 am
Posts: 13291
To expand on Jack's idea. Why ???

There's nothing to win in C class if you did not buy into the C class class pot. And it's a little unnerving to bet even 1 penny in a SYO shoot.

"we" have been byatching for 20 + years and nothing has "grown" the game by any great margin.

The attempts at a Pro Circuit have all failed. The Pros have no interest in shooting for their own money and the sponsors always see it as a losing idea on their advertisement $$$.

_________________
Nsca # 540300. Been loving this game since 01.

Our prentice Tom may now refuse
To wipe his scoundrel master's shoes
For now he's free to sing and play
O'er the hills and far away.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:16 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:49 pm
Posts: 3063
JacksBack wrote:

In that, I think it's actually a good system. But it is not ever going to be a 100% "fair and reliable" way to classify ALL shooters. Once you hit M class, then it does a pretty decent and reliable job of properly separating -- aside from the downclass issue. My solution for that is to force it after two contiguous years of being stuck in the bottom 25% ...


Think further about that for a moment, Jack.

Your recommendation will really load up AA Class, and make it very difficult for the guy who worked his way up from E Class to AA to move into Masters.

5 years ago, prior to me having my knees replaced, I missed the cut to stay in Master Class by 1 punch. I was shooting in a lot of pain, and both my Mom and FIL died that year.

I took the down class, and punch back into Master's by July or so. Along the way, I got a lot of comments from AA shooters that I was needlessly taking their punches. Got into a heated argument with a guy who called me a sandbagger.

Never going to be a perfect classification system.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:18 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5355
Sport shooting/recreational shooting continues to do well......but a fact many don’t want to accept is dedicated competitive shooting is on the ropes. And I’m talking about any discipline, including handgun and rifle games.

Individually, the best we can do IMO, is to introduce a few new shooters to the game as best we can, and a small number of those might become long term junkies, like we did. But no dicking around with the rules is going to make any significant impact.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:37 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 4:09 pm
Posts: 5304
Location: Omaha, NE
I agree with RB about rules are probably not going to change anything.

I'm going to a registered shoot tomorrow. One guy dropped out of registered shooting because he was stuck in B class and didn't see the point of continuing.

Another one just joined NSCA but is coming over from shooting skeet and likes competition.

2 other guys have always shot non registered and can't be convinced to join NSCA.

2 total new shooters, shoot some rec. sporting, trap and hunt. It will be interesting to get their prospective on NSCA.- I actually tried to talk these guys out of going to this shoot. The club is known for very salty targets, and while these guys have shot some charity/fluff targets I'll be shocked if they shoot over 40%.

BTW, the club we are going to does charge different rates for registered vs. non registered shooters- I think 8.00 per hundred difference.

_________________
Jim

Eye on the rock, head on the stock.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:50 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:49 pm
Posts: 3063
RB,

One rule change that I think is overdue, is one concerning what has happened way too often -- a shooter in say C Class shoots a score that gets him a single punch (or even no punch), and someone in a higher class shoots that very same score, and gets more punches. That dog don't hunt in terms of what's fair.

So, I think if say a A class shooter shoots an 84, and gets 4 punches, and a B Class Shooter shoots the same 84 and is scheduled to get a single punch (for whatever reason), that B Class person should get the same number of punches in his Class as the A Class shooter got in his/her class.

That change should have happened long ago. I do think that would make a huge difference in terms of what's really fair. Especially when the lower class shooter is being penalized because there's not enough shooters in his class that day.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:00 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 5355
Agree completely with that Mule.......


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:56 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 11:49 am
Posts: 5378
Location: Southwest Georgia, USA
The punch system is based on the number of shooters in your class and not scores in other classes. And IMHO, that is what it should be. Where the scores get out of whack is in smaller shoots where frequently a lower class will have a higher score than the higher classes. In a 100 target shoot, most class winning scores are going to be between 80 and 94 or thereabouts. No way are you going to get 7 class winners scores spread evenly among those 14 scores.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:38 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2010 12:49 pm
Posts: 3063
albanygun wrote:
The punch system is based on the number of shooters in your class and not scores in other classes. And IMHO, that is what it should be. Where the scores get out of whack is in smaller shoots where frequently a lower class will have a higher score than the higher classes. In a 100 target shoot, most class winning scores are going to be between 80 and 94 or thereabouts. No way are you going to get 7 class winners scores spread evenly among those 14 scores.


Totally disagree.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: what can we do to support lower class registered shooter
PostPosted: Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:48 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:02 pm
Posts: 16
Long term residents of any class will suffer at the hands of the up-and-comers passing thru on their way up.




Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 182 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 10  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: 1casual, 230rn, Bing [Bot], birdhunter39, BOB_HARWELL, Canerod, clays99, cookoff013, CubaLibre, DEG, df, Diddle, DLS Guide, drawdc, Drew Hause, ellisjre, federal, FTRPILOT, Gadwall, goodemachine, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], Google Feedfetcher, Hal4son, JacksBack, Jason Johnson, JD-Man, John Henry, johnnymiz, JoM, jusanothajoe, KickEez, LilBoog, LoFlyer, longislandloco, lossking, luckydogg, Matalpa2, mikehunter1954, Mkk, msmith, Mule Driver, nwcanoe, outdoorbum, oyeme, painter*, PawleysJim, Pine Creek/Dave, PJR, Researcher01, rsnell, Rubberhead, Rudolph31, shacked, Shooting Dave, Skeet_Man, sneem2, Tal/IL, The Swanny, Ti317, Tidefanatic, twohigh, ushoot2, VictorGK, xsshooter


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group    - DMCA Notice