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 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:36 am 
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NPA was proposed at about the time that SYO shoots became the new reality. The idea that there was no longer any $$$ in shooting was also a factor.

It seemed better to "win" a punch than win a .001 increase in one's average , since winning an NPA class was NOT going to get that winner any money.

*All the classes are based on skeet which has more classes and concurrents than you can shake a stick at.



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 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:59 am 
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bdog58 wrote:
I get what Mule is saying. It really came about from the other thread (which stated lower class) about gaining, keeping traction on aspiring shooters. Though as experienced reg and participating shooters it doesn't mean much to us.....but it does to them, and frankly whether anyone wants to admit it or not...many of us.

Where is the line.....lower class drawn? A class.....good shooting there. Lesser, lower? Same cow, just different cuts. I'd say, refer as A-E.

Folks do get hung up on letter titles. Heck, IMO the term "Master" really muddies up the pond. Using the term Master puts a different connotation to the level than say, AAA. I'm in Master class, but more a AAA shooter thinking of guys like Zach, Anthony and so on. Those guys....are Masters.


Thanks bdog. You really grasped my point.

And, as you would surely know, I'm not the least bit of a person who worries about being or tries to be politically correct. Just the opposite, most times.

But calling a group of shooters "lower class" just doesn't set well with me. I like your idea of just calling them "Shooters in A through E Class" instead. That works, and works well.

Thank you. I believed you've picked the winner.


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 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:06 pm 
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I could be wrong but it seems like most everyone grasps your point and the suggestion to refer by class rather than lumping into a "lower class" group has been repeated throughout the thread.

But, doesn't lumping everyone A-E somewhat serve the same purpose? You're still lumping those classes lower than M/AA into a group, correct? Does it motivate a C class to become a B class when you're still just a "Shooter in A through E Class"?

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 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:43 pm 
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SirSkeetsALot wrote:
But, doesn't lumping everyone A-E somewhat serve the same purpose?


Yes, but you’re not referring to them as “lower class”.

Quote:
You're still lumping those classes lower than M/AA into a group, correct?


But you’re not referring to them as “lower class”.


Quote:
Does it motivate a C class to become a B class when you're still just a "Shooter in A through E Class"?


Doesn’t make any difference. The motivation for that needs to come from elsewhere. It appears that you still aren’t grasping the point with this.


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 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:54 pm 
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I am M class but still a low class shooter...

seriously, how big of a loser to you have to be to get upset because someone says you shoot in a low/lower class... if you aren't sniffing HOA then by the metrics of that shoot you are aren't very good, despite the BS they teach in school everyone isn't special and everyone isn't a winner, that includes me basically every weekend.


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 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:26 pm 
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Geez.

Pretty simple concept. Treat people, as you'd like to be treated. Someone calling me "lower" or "lesser" won't hurt my feelings. Might motivate me. Might tick me off. Might make myself say to myself....thats a guy to avoid. Whatever the case and how it resonates with others I don't many folks would say, "yea...call me lower or lesser, don't care". One might not care considering the source but they aren't looking for the comment.

When you read the other thread, it talks about being welcoming to new shooters....which are usually C-E. Helping them, educating them, setting an example. I'd have to believe, being referred to as lower or lesser doesn't fit the welcoming narrative.

It was just a thought, and a good one, in ways to help grow the sport. To treat folks, like one would like to be treated.


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 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 3:50 pm 
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Again.... we’re ALL just shooters. Classification just means you’re at a different stop on the trail.

The only class labeling I’ve ever heard is “he/she is in ‘x’ class”. I’ve never heard anyone say ‘lesser, lower, top’ or anything else.


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 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:04 pm 
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Mule Driver wrote:
SirSkeetsALot wrote:
But, doesn't lumping everyone A-E somewhat serve the same purpose?


Yes, but you’re not referring to them as “lower class”.

Quote:
You're still lumping those classes lower than M/AA into a group, correct?


But you’re not referring to them as “lower class”.


Quote:
Does it motivate a C class to become a B class when you're still just a "Shooter in A through E Class"?


Doesn’t make any difference. The motivation for that needs to come from elsewhere. It appears that you still aren’t grasping the point with this.


If I thought that someone didn't grasp my point because they didn't agree with me 100% or had a thought of their own beyond the premise then I would probably feel misunderstood most of the time. Thankfully, that's not the case.

Frankly, I haven't heard the term "lower class" tossed around enough for it to really register in memory. If hearing that term ran someone off from the hobby, they might also have a hard time with competition itself to begin with. Also, when you lump people into two groups you can call them what you want, but one will be viewed higher and one lower. Better to say "hey, there's Bob." That's guaranteed not to hurt his feelings...unless that's not his name. Bob probably doesn't actually care though because Bob is a successful lawyer and family man that happens to be a D class shooter. His son Billy is a B class shooter, but Bob made sure to tell him that he's much more than that. Good feelings.

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Last edited by SirSkeetsALot on Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:36 pm 
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Rooster booster wrote:
Again.... we’re ALL just shooters. Classification just means you’re at a different stop on the trail.

The only class labeling I’ve ever heard is “he/she is in ‘x’ class”. I’ve never heard anyone say ‘lesser, lower, top’ or anything else.


This is my experience also. I had to think about it for a minute, but I don't recall those terms being thrown around enough to register. I did see it in a Shotgunworld post recently....

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 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:46 pm 
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sera wrote:
NPA was proposed at about the time that SYO shoots became the new reality. The idea that there was no longer any $$$ in shooting was also a factor.

It seemed better to "win" a punch than win a .001 increase in one's average , since winning an NPA class was NOT going to get that winner any money.

*All the classes are based on skeet which has more classes and concurrents than you can shake a stick at.

The only thing NPA changed was that the NPA (average) was used to determine classification, not worthless punches. Nothing else changed. You still had classes, concurrent and everything else you have now. NPA took into account poor performance. Ego's started to deflate. End of story.


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 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 4:48 pm 
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lt0026 wrote:
sera wrote:
NPA was proposed at about the time that SYO shoots became the new reality. The idea that there was no longer any $$$ in shooting was also a factor.

It seemed better to "win" a punch than win a .001 increase in one's average , since winning an NPA class was NOT going to get that winner any money.

*All the classes are based on skeet which has more classes and concurrents than you can shake a stick at.

The only thing NPA changefd was that the NPA (average) was used to determine classification, not worthless punches. Nothing else changed. You still had classes, concurrent and everything else you have now. NPA took into account poor performance. Ego's started to deflate. End of story.


Why do you participate in a game that leaves you feeling so bitter?


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 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:03 pm 
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Maybe they shouldn’t post scores and only the winner. That way nobody’s feelers would be hurt.
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 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:14 pm 
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Here is the problem with any average/punch/percentage classification system that you put into place.........individuals find a way to circumvent the system for their own advantage.......get rid of dishonesty and any well thought out system probably would work just fine.

Personally, the system that is in place works for me. Is it perfect? Nope, but it really doesn't matter as there are advantages and disadvantages to any system you use. At least this system rewards you when you win.

There is another way to circumvent all systems......shoot the best score every time out.

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 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:32 pm 
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You will never get rid of cheaters/sandbaggers/individuals who try to game a system; the best you can hope for is that some form of average/NPA/CCR system will result in the majority of folks being grouped where their current (not past) ability places them,regardless of class as this is not just a M class "thing".

I still like the idea of reducing the number of classes down to 4 from 7

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 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:49 pm 
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oneounceload wrote:
You will never get rid of cheaters/sandbaggers/individuals who try to game a system; the best you can hope for is that some form of average/NPA/CCR system will result in the majority of folks being grouped where their current (not past) ability places them,regardless of class as this is not just a M class "thing".

I still like the idea of reducing the number of classes down to 4 from 7


That right there (7 to 4) is all I think is really needed. There just are not enough registered shooters to support 7 classes for your typical local shoot. Yeah the big bang shoots gather enough shooters to make that work but week in week out it is crazy to have registered shoots with 4-9 people in a multiple classes......

Like I said I could care less what those classes are called I just want to compete against more than couple people and have a chance to earn some punches.....


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 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:38 pm 
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Lacyb wrote:
oneounceload wrote:
You will never get rid of cheaters/sandbaggers/individuals who try to game a system; the best you can hope for is that some form of average/NPA/CCR system will result in the majority of folks being grouped where their current (not past) ability places them,regardless of class as this is not just a M class "thing".

I still like the idea of reducing the number of classes down to 4 from 7


That right there (7 to 4) is all I think is really needed. There just are not enough registered shooters to support 7 classes for your typical local shoot. Yeah the big bang shoots gather enough shooters to make that work but week in week out it is crazy to have registered shoots with 4-9 people in a multiple classes......

Like I said I could care less what those classes are called I just want to compete against more than couple people and have a chance to earn some punches.....


Very well said!


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 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:25 pm 
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Reducing the number of classes from 7 to 4? As in having Master, A, B, C?

Are you folks looking to demoralize new shooters?

That would work IF everyone was there to win. It isn't going to work for folks that just want a decent day shooting clays and not end up DFL or close to it.

With 7 classes at least most people have some sort of chance to feel good. Whether you like it or not, that is human nature and the way things work in 2020.

If you want less people shooting sporting clays go to 4 classes.

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 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 9:56 pm 
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Newer shooters don’t typically give a rats a$$ about what class they’re in. Initially, they’re looking for fun, some helpful hints, bust more targets then last time.

When and if they stick around long enough to get the bug bad, and start trying to work up, what they hate is getting their best score tossed, because they were the only one in class at the ‘normal’ semi local monthly shoot.

Then, when there are enough in class, they get their good score hammered by some ‘new’ shooter who doesn’t have the decency to declare up according to their ability.

Fewer classes would be MUCH better. Even 7 to 5 would be huge.


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 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:38 pm 
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I will take myself as an example here in this..feel free to critcize my shooting, but here is what I am seeing as a SOLID D shooter here in Arizona. I regularly shoot between 67-70 on a very consistent basis. How as a D class shooter can I compete with other D class shooters that are 1) first time shooting registered targets or 2) not shooting known ability? I cannot compete in local club shoots as I need to break mid 80s as a D to score punches? So limiting to 4 classes as some suggest, how will that help me advance up the ranks? Its hard enough now to do so, which is why I shoot the regional shoots, because the "big fish in little pond" doesn't exist near as much. I love the sport as much as the next guy, but if someone is shooting 90s or high 80s..after that shoot they should immediately be moved up..as they can now be seen having known ability..this rule really just needs to be enforced more than what it is.

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 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:38 am 
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That was well stated, and hopefully you won’t take offense at what I’m going to say.

Too few in class is nationally a bigger issue than too many for most shooters. Smaller fun shoots, with often not 3 in class is more common. Do, unless there’s a way to make more start shooting, class consolidation makes sense.

To your good point of that deepening the talent pool, you’re probably correct. The only real answer I could offer, is the obvious one, involving ‘go get it’. It hard, often expensive, and brutal in the ego, and I’m talking practice, not tournaments.

I’ve always (35+ years of sporting, 49 years comp) said I’d rather be DFL, in the highest category that I could achieve, in anything. Shooting, baseball, etc.. no one on an MLB roster would trade their spot on the bench, for a starring role in the minors. And no one in triple A would trade for a slot in A ball.

Money notwithstanding, this is where my sympathies lie and die. I’ve mentored several shooters into the sport, but their 85 in C class got them nothing, because there were too few in class that day. Or one punch at a tome, and they can’t see the finish line.

But you also have to respect anyone, in any class that can shoot good scores......they worked for that ability. Worrying about the ‘flash’ that posts 91 is false economy. They’ll move up or move out before long. Bust your fanny (practice) so you can keep notching up your average, or if you feel competitive, declare up.

Personally, some of my very best performances didn’t get me $hit, but I posted a good score for my ability on those targets, on that day. That’s all I ever really care about. If you work hard, and continue to head toward the best of ‘your’ ability, what else really matters? But if moving up is your goal ( it was mine), it’s a road that must be traveled alone for the most part.




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