ShotGunWorld Shotguns

It is currently Wed Jan 27, 2021 8:55 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Image



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 214 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 11  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 12:52 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2016 3:34 pm
Posts: 6034
One thought I forgot (if you can believe that)....is the regional differences. The first half of my sporting journey, I lived in a metro area, with at the time 8 facilities within 125 miles, half of those throwing registered, good turnouts. Plenty in class.

Second half, retired, moved to BF nowhere. 265 miles to the CLOSEST facility, that throws a decent registered target. Once a month. Often not 3+ in classes, overnight trip for most.

Maybe if there’s that environment, combine a few classes? At larger venues, leave them as is? That’s not an original thought by my, others have voiced it better than me.




Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:05 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 5:58 pm
Posts: 53
Location: Gilbert, AZ
No offence was taken at all from your post. I am in the Phoenix area, shooting season from October until May. Number of shooters in the class isn't the issue, the issue is needing 90s in D class when they must have an idea how they shoot! Known ability has to be raised, even if it is their first 100 targets, when you are in a race for HOA, a note should be sent to NSCA or something stating that this person is not at all reflecting the class that they are in. I am only 36 and took me 4 years to punch out of E class due to this reason, and when I get to D, all new members are put in D. I know some people only shoot the local smaller shoots as they are big fish, don't shoot regionals as the ego or whatever get hurt. I know that i will shoot 50s at a regional and also know 60 may win it and not a 188 for a main shooter in D.

_________________
2002-2006 US Navy
NAS Whidbey Island, WA and USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN 71)
Aviation Electricians Mate


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:15 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:22 am
Posts: 9094
Location: Rochester, NY
polywad6963 wrote:
No offence was taken at all from your post. I am in the Phoenix area, shooting season from October until May. Number of shooters in the class isn't the issue, the issue is needing 90s in D class when they must have an idea how they shoot! Known ability has to be raised, even if it is their first 100 targets, when you are in a race for HOA, a note should be sent to NSCA or something stating that this person is not at all reflecting the class that they are in. I am only 36 and took me 4 years to punch out of E class due to this reason, and when I get to D, all new members are put in D. I know some people only shoot the local smaller shoots as they are big fish, don't shoot regionals as the ego or whatever get hurt. I know that i will shoot 50s at a regional and also know 60 may win it and not a 188 for a main shooter in D.


Unless it's the same shooter over and over again, one breakout performance proves nothing.

_________________
S3 Smingler Shotgun Sports
Ian Smingler
585-613-8098
[email protected]
http://www.sminglershotgunsports.com

Manufacturer of Custom Brass Barrel Weights for over/under, top single, and unsingle shotguns.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 1:53 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 5:58 pm
Posts: 53
Location: Gilbert, AZ
The example I put above is..person that won EVERY D class event, person was tied runner up with master class in Super Sporting with a 45, shot 81-79 on main, 45 on 5 stand. This is why I think that a note should be sent to NSCA and shooter saying that we are placing you in A class to be competitive with the shooters of your ability. Yes he punched out but we have several here that just milk the cow for the money at the money shoots.

_________________
2002-2006 US Navy
NAS Whidbey Island, WA and USS Theodore Roosevelt (CVN 71)
Aviation Electricians Mate


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:09 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:22 pm
Posts: 11084
Location: Athens,TX.
polywad6963 wrote:
The example I put above is..person that won EVERY D class event, person was tied runner up with master class in Super Sporting with a 45, shot 81-79 on main, 45 on 5 stand. This is why I think that a note should be sent to NSCA and shooter saying that we are placing you in A class to be competitive with the shooters of your ability. Yes he punched out but we have several here that just milk the cow for the money at the money shoots.


Same type of deal around me (East TX ) is why I decided to not shoot anymore Registered events. So it goes back to what I said early on in this topic-personal choice-either you want to continue to shoot NSCA (warts and all) or you don't. Your call :) Just my thoughts/opinion but the NSCA isn't about classing similar skilled shooters but in getting folks to shoot more chasing punches and collecting target fees. Your view point may be different {hs#

_________________
Jerry

TSRA LIFE MEMBER
NSCA #610xxx

Rose City Clays - Tyler TX
5H Shooting Sports Frankston TX ( Formally the Chicken Ranch)
Caney Creek- Teague TX


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 6:44 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5720
The known ability rule exists but most clubs are afraid to use it. Delegates can request a review but they hardly ever do it. Don't blame the shooter. This is another instance where the average system (NPA) would work better. Any score shot in a SYO means nothing. Everyone knows what's going on when you enter.


Last edited by lt0026 on Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:15 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:50 am
Posts: 81
Location: Western Pennsylvania
This is how the "shooters" move up...They shoot 10K plus rounds a year in practice.....they put gas in the vehicle and go to shoots were they have a chance to move up, stay in a motel if necessary, drive 5 plus hours if necessary, fly if necessary....they take lessons.....they don't only go to shoots where they know there will not be enough shooters....they don't ask the NSCA to change the system so they don't have to put in the work to "shoot" their way up...

The good shooters shoot their way up in class....they shoot a score that gives them punches no matter who else shows up...they practice, go to decent size shoots, and "perform" when it counts...

They don't whine about it being unfair on the net.....

Sporting clays is much like any other sport... the people that are good work at it, and put in the time....sacrifice for it, have the passion to get better...yet some never make the tour or the show, but they gave their best effort, knowing the rules of the game when they started the journey.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:42 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:56 pm
Posts: 7688
Location: Central ND
Rooster booster,

Quote:
Personally, some of my very best performances didn’t get me $hit, but I posted a good score for my ability on those targets, on that day. That’s all I ever really care about. If you work hard, and continue to head toward the best of ‘your’ ability, what else really matters? But if moving up is your goal ( it was mine), it’s a road that must be traveled alone for the most part.


Well said and I completely agree......however the majority of people don't look at things this way.

Sporting Clays is a business, and if you make it too difficult to move up you will lose people. To the club and the NSCA, their #1 concern is getting a lot of people to shoot and keep them coming back. We, as shooters, may or may not like that idea but that is also in our best interest. The more people that shoot, means more events get held and more targets get thrown and that is a plus for everyone.

There are places that don't have a lot of shooters and I do understand how too many classes messes things up when you win but there aren't enough people to get a punch. However if you have 4 classes in an area that typically have shoots that have over 100 people show up (this is typical of the area I shoot in) that is going to create problems too. Not to mention the larger shoots when 200 plus shooters show up.

I can see some wisdom in getting rid of E class, but even that........

_________________
Mark

aka Mr. Tactful. Common sense no longer appears to be common.
NSCA#544066


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 7:55 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:56 pm
Posts: 7688
Location: Central ND
For the areas that have a small amount of shooters in some classes, you might be able to setup up a rule that would give the winner of a class a punch IF they shot well enough to win the class above.

I think someone else mentioned this and I think it has possibilities......I just don't know what the consequences of such a rule might be.

_________________
Mark

aka Mr. Tactful. Common sense no longer appears to be common.
NSCA#544066


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:22 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5720
None of this rehashed and half baked stuff matters. The only thing that matters is the revenue stream to the NSCA, State Associations and the clubs. Any perceived threat to the revenue stream is a non starter. Until you accept that, you will continue to bark up the wrong tree. But you know this or ignore this going in. It is what it is. The NSCA's main function is to collect fees and keep records. The NSCA, run by skeet shooters has a good business model. They charge membership and tax's and give away a worthless punch and keep records in return.
Disclaimer: I am a capitalist.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:38 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:02 am
Posts: 2483
Location: KS
Hopper has it right. Accept the game for what it is, warts and all; then, do whatever works for you as an individual because things are unlikely to change significantly - complexity, competing priorities, and inertia.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 8:47 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5720
It probably boils down to how important the game is in your life. Whatever that is it's what YOU make it out to be. And that's not the same for all shooters. I don't know any game where everyone is completely happy with everything that goes on. And people will almost always have an idea that they think will improve the game. Summarily dismissing those ideas because of a perceived attack on master class is really shallow.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:03 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:50 am
Posts: 81
Location: Western Pennsylvania
lt0026 wrote:
None of this rehashed and half baked stuff matters. The only thing that matters is the revenue stream to the NSCA, State Associations and the clubs. Any perceived threat to the revenue stream is a non starter. Until you accept that, you will continue to bark up the wrong tree. But you know this or ignore this going in. It is what it is. The NSCA's main function is to collect fees and keep records. The NSCA, run by skeet shooters has a good business model. They charge membership and tax's and give away a worthless punch and keep records in return.
Disclaimer: I am a capitalist.



Since you are dissatisfied with the money flow in sporting clays...And while in the beginning the NSCA was run by the Skeet shooters...today with Skeet losing popularity and Sporting overshadowing it, the roles have reversed...

In addition, in case you may not be aware, Hal Dupont personally kept the NSSA and NSCA afloat more than once. Without his donation of hard capitalist cash it would have went under a couple times.

However, how would you suggest it be run differently?

What would be a better solution?

What does the maintenance and upkeep of the National Shooting Complex in San Antonio cost the NSSA/NSCA to keep it up and running...Does that count in the record keeping to give out worthless punches?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:15 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:02 am
Posts: 2483
Location: KS
I would suggest that NSCA operate as an independent sanctioning body so that NSCA members could vote on issues (and have those votes count) and so that AC/EC "recommendations" did not have to be ratified by NSSA before implementation.

NSCA's chattel relationship to NSSA is great for registered skeet, not so much for sporting clays.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:19 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 5:22 pm
Posts: 11084
Location: Athens,TX.
Battue0626 wrote:
And while in the beginning the NSCA was run by the Skeet shooters...today with Skeet losing popularity and Sporting overshadowing it, the roles have reversed...


NSCA will always be a step child of the NSSA.

_________________
Jerry

TSRA LIFE MEMBER
NSCA #610xxx

Rose City Clays - Tyler TX
5H Shooting Sports Frankston TX ( Formally the Chicken Ranch)
Caney Creek- Teague TX


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:27 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:50 am
Posts: 81
Location: Western Pennsylvania
http://nsc.nssa-nsca.org/

Take a look and find your way to facilities....They do more than record keeping to add up worthless punches...In addition, it may be a tad bit difficult for the NSCA and their only 15,000 or so members to come up with anything close....to build new shooting complexes with the anti-gun environment of today would be a daunting task...Our relationship with the NSSA is one of mutual benefit.

Of course some of the near sighted Skeet shooters would like to kick us out also..

http://nsc.nssa-nsca.org/

Then if one looks at the events calendar, they even have some trap events...WTH are they thinking....Screw those trap shooters.....


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:42 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:02 am
Posts: 2483
Location: KS
Registered sporting could do okay without an owned shooting complex; USO and Regionals "travel;" Nationals could as well. Skeet needs the NSC, and they probably cannot sustain it without the revenue from the disenfranchised members of NSCA. The mutual benefit is similar to that between a hog and a tapeworm.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 9:51 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5720
It's only a matter of time before SA has to move due to sprawl. The big events should probably be moved around like the US Open and PGA in golf. But once again it's about the $$. The NSCA is currently run by the NSSA. Look at the minutes. And how many members ever make it to SA on a regular basis? Moving the Nationals around and selling off the SA property would probably allow the NSCA to be run on 1 floor of office space.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:02 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:50 am
Posts: 81
Location: Western Pennsylvania
You may be right.... and yes it possibly could.. However, as far as voting on rules, the rules of sporting clays are essentially established worldwide...So what "rules or issues" need changed? How the money gets divided is another issue...However, I would be interested in how the Skeet people are skimming off the Sporting shooters contribution. Skeet is slowly diminishing in popularity while Sporting is on the rise, so If the trend continues the power role will reverse....However, be that as it may, we need sporting, skeet, trap, hunting, 3 gun, rifle, USPSA, IDPA, etc, etc...To fight amongst ourselves in the present environment is a fools game....


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A better way to refer to Shooters in A, B, C, D, or E Cl
PostPosted: Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:06 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:50 am
Posts: 81
Location: Western Pennsylvania
lt0026 wrote:
It's only a matter of time before SA has to move due to sprawl. The big events should probably be moved around like the US Open and PGA in golf. But once again it's about the $$. The NSCA is currently run by the NSSA. Look at the minutes. And how many members ever make it to SA on a regular basis? Moving the Nationals around and selling off the SA property would probably allow the NSCA to be run on 1 floor of office space.



Wow the NSCA could have a public face of 1 floor of office space...Wouldn't that be impressive...

Looks like the big money is to own a sporting course that can handle the big shoots on a rotating basis...Once again, it is all about the dollars and nothing changes....

And here is the reality....You have 15,000 individuals belonging to any organization, there will be a faction that thinks the structure, individuals that do the work and most everything else needs to be changed.

If you have your way and run it yourself as efficiently and honestly as humanly possible, there will be more than a few on some internet forum bitching about it...Mostly those that don't have a single clue on what it takes or the ability to do it better.....




Last edited by Battue0626 on Sat Aug 15, 2020 10:30 am, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 214 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7 ... 11  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: 250sav, Bakerloo, Bamaskeetshooter, BerettaEd, Bing [Bot], birdhunter39, casonet, cddawson, Colt99, Combat Sausage, CrusherT, D McMillen, deadbird995, Dedduc, Dek, dpe2002, drawdc, drcook, duanecox2003, dukman22, ecampo, Eric719, faas001, federal, fralic76, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], Google Feedfetcher, goosedowner, hardcast, haswipp, HenryVac, icyclefar, Jason Johnson, jims, JJPinOhio, jlssd1, Joe Hunter, jwf1948, kolar55, KRIEGHOFFK80, lossking, Majestic-12 [Bot], marshfield, mikeydio, Misplaced Lead, Novak77, Oldman1949, oneounceload, outdoorbum, paul222, PennSkeet, pintail_drake2004, Pirates55, PKW-Indiana, QuietZac, Rack-N-Roy, randyflycaster, razir66, rgonzo, RUT, senoiaslim, shacked, shootandfish2, skeetfets, Snotrub, superskeet, SuperXOne, sv10001975, SWPAMike, Terrapin, Tidefanatic, Tonybart55, WAGinVA, Warden, YevetS


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group    - DMCA Notice