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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:59 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 10:02 pm
Posts: 305
lt0026 wrote:
Lets see if Known Ability is used for these guys in the next shoot.


:x ... That will be Colorado State; I doubt it.




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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 10:26 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5593
J.T. Guitar wrote:
Another buddy had an interesting theory; Coming from trap they’re used to shooting in the 80s and 90s. When they saw the difficulty of the course they might have ”padded their scorecards” to keep from being embarrassed, never figuring they’d win the whole shooting match. I don’t know. Hopefully it was legit.

However, the club might want to check their Promatic system since it shorted them at least 30 birds.


:lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 1:00 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:02 am
Posts: 2470
Location: KS
Maybe legit, maybe not; we don't know in this case, and we won't know in any of the endless string of similar cases going forward. CPSA has shown us how to do it right; we've chosen not to.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:29 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5593
Until people stop playing Sgt Schultz this stuff will continue.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:40 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:02 am
Posts: 2470
Location: KS
Sgt Schultz personifies most of us. People avoid confrontation. Systems that control for that reality work better than those that do not.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:52 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:20 pm
Posts: 22698
I agree, but most clubs here do not have the personnel readily available on a continuous monthly basis, and most of the time they are using kids who tend to get easily bullied by the chip beggars - most of whom seem to be in M and AA

_________________
The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory, Aldo Gucci

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:18 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5593
Handing out scorecards and pencils expecting friends and relatives to make some though calls just doesn't work. Skeet,Trap, FITASC and AFS all have field judges. Why not sporting? Should cost be sacrificed for fairness? Apparently so. Luckily we still have a choice. Some shoots are run properly.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:27 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2004 3:36 pm
Posts: 496
Location: Claremore, OK
J.T. Guitar wrote:
https://app.scorechaser.com/tournament-events-0PRDUDLGGRL0T1-0KPRODULRGL0U1

As someone who shot the course... It was tough.

Both shooters, jr. trap league trained, shooting together, alone, and both C and D class shooters having a trashcan lid day, without seeing show pairs, and beating 6 past state champs by 10+ birds. The stars must have been lined up just right. *!*



Good shooting Jeff!


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:40 pm 
Tournament Grade
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Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:23 pm
Posts: 235
Location: Colorado
BMPregler wrote:
J.T. Guitar wrote:
https://app.scorechaser.com/tournament-events-0PRDUDLGGRL0T1-0KPRODULRGL0U1

As someone who shot the course... It was tough.

Both shooters, jr. trap league trained, shooting together, alone, and both C and D class shooters having a trashcan lid day, without seeing show pairs, and beating 6 past state champs by 10+ birds. The stars must have been lined up just right. *!*



Good shooting Jeff!

He would have shot an 84 but I took a bird away from him on a report pair the second bird a long rabbit came off the arm a chipped when it hit the ground. He crushed it but I called no bird and had him shoot it over. He missed the second rabbit. Fatguywithafirearm keeping the honest man honest. lol


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:50 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:02 am
Posts: 2470
Location: KS
oneounceload wrote:
I agree, but most clubs here do not have the personnel readily available on a continuous monthly basis, and most of the time they are using kids who tend to get easily bullied by the chip beggars - most of whom seem to be in M and AA


You’re right. Requiring trappers for all registered events would result in substantially fewer registered shoots, but the ones that did happen would be worth attending. And, one could be more (if not completely) certain about the accuracy/honesty of posted results.

However, SYO is here to stay. NSSA would never do anything that would reduce the target tax revenue stream.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2020 9:36 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 10:02 pm
Posts: 305
BMPregler wrote:
Good shooting Jeff!


Thanks Brother!

fatguywithafirearm wrote:
He would have shot an 84 but I took a bird away from him on a report pair the second bird a long rabbit came off the arm a chipped when it hit the ground. He crushed it but I called no bird and had him shoot it over. He missed the second rabbit. Fatguywithafirearm keeping the honest man honest. lol


Ha... Rules are rules/thanks for the friendship and joining me on the SC journey!


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:11 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:09 pm
Posts: 18
Part 1:
This weekend, at a club I choose to keep anonymous, two mature (gray hairs) individuals showed up mid day to a registered shoot. They came in and looked at the extremely impressive awards, checked out the scores on Winscore, and headed out to the Championship course as a two man squad.

Amazing! Both shot the best registered scores of their life on a very difficult course! As a result, they both won their classes and took home the very impressive awards.

Part 2:

Certain other shooters were displeased by this turn of events, and when the same two shooters showed up at a charity event (with very impressive awards also) the next day, they were monitored from a distance by a rotating group of individuals without their knowledge.

The course they shot was considerably easier than the prior days championship course.

and yes, you guessed it - with a four man squad and spies watching their scores were roughly 15 birds per man lower than the prior day.

Part 3:

Probably can't do anything about it, but reputation is everything, and theirs is now in question. They have been told that they need to always have a three man squad going forward......

Part 4:

With everyone having a hand held computer, if you shoot a good score don't turn in your scorecard until the last minute. At least keep the cheaters guessing.

(Another one that cracked me up was the wife pulling for her husband at a registered shoot (one man squad). When asked why they were not marking the score card as they went, they replied that the wife memorized the scores and wrote them down later......)


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:48 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5593
Clubs shouldn't be posting any scores for SYO until all shooting is complete. At least keep the cheaters guessing what they need to post.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:17 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:18 pm
Posts: 532
SYO isn't going away, for obvious reasons.

For a euorpean start, clubs should mandate a 3 person squad. Sure, not the cure all. But it helps.

Clubs running a SYO are doing it for logistics and money. Understand. It becomes then, at least the way I see it and how I'd run the club, incumbent on the club to do everything they can to maintain the integrity of the shoot.....thus the club. A staffer should be on the course ensuring safety, responding to mechanical issues, loading. As well as......looking and taking notes. And when a card comes in with a lot of marks, make a note.

Squadded events. Easier to ensure at least three and during covid, I've seen mainly four.

Vast majority of shooters police the event without even trying. Its a shame the few get in the way. As someone mentioned, once the rep is tagged.....it lives on. And if proven, swift action must occur.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:21 am 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:20 pm
Posts: 22698
lt0026 wrote:
Clubs shouldn't be posting any scores for SYO until all shooting is complete. At least keep the cheaters guessing what they need to post.

That would mess with Brad's plan for tablets at every station

_________________
The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory, Aldo Gucci

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:56 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:02 am
Posts: 2470
Location: KS
oneounceload wrote:
lt0026 wrote:
Clubs shouldn't be posting any scores for SYO until all shooting is complete. At least keep the cheaters guessing what they need to post.

That would mess with Brad's plan for tablets at every station


That's funny; though electronics would probably make it easier to keep the cheaters guessing.

It should be relatively easy to program an electronic system to record scores in real time but post only when the final shooter's score was recorded and verified on the course - without the delay inherent in manual posting.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:20 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:26 pm
Posts: 4
Is the system perfect? Absolutely Not! But to employ scorers/Trappers at local shoots of 50-60 shooters would put an end to local shoots. Ive shot subgauge side events after a main event where 2 of us couldn't find more people to squad with because most of the shooters shot sub gauge 1st thing in the morning.. Do you not shoot it?? No. You shoot with a 2 man squad.. Its Legal in English rotation.. I've noticed several names in my D-Class that consistently score in the 70s at self score shoots, but then they score 30s to 40s at shoots with Trappers. Is it aggravating?? Yes. But cheaters will cheat regardless of the number of people in their squad. Golf has been self scored for 100+ years, even on the absolute highest levels whether its a foursome or a tournament round with twosome.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 6:53 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:02 am
Posts: 2470
Location: KS
Requiring trappers for registered would probably put an end to most monthly shoots. For exactly that reason, NSSA isn't about to require trappers for registered. The question is whether it's worth participating in a registered format that facilitates cheating.

I no longer bother with SYO - shoot the same targets on Monday for less money. If a registered event has trappers and is within a reasonable driving distance I'll go. All personal choice, do what works for you.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:17 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5593
Paying to play a game that lacks credibility just doesn't make much sense. But I guess some people would rather ignore what goes on. But at least you know going in that it's expensive practice with friends and relatives keeping score. And if you get pencil whipped don't get upset, it's what you signed up for.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2020 7:17 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon May 20, 2019 9:53 am
Posts: 1326
Smg3 wrote:
Is the system perfect? Absolutely Not! But to employ scorers/Trappers at local shoots of 50-60 shooters would put an end to local shoots. Ive shot subgauge side events after a main event where 2 of us couldn't find more people to squad with because most of the shooters shot sub gauge 1st thing in the morning.. Do you not shoot it?? No. You shoot with a 2 man squad.. Its Legal in English rotation.. I've noticed several names in my D-Class that consistently score in the 70s at self score shoots, but then they score 30s to 40s at shoots with Trappers. Is it aggravating?? Yes. But cheaters will cheat regardless of the number of people in their squad. Golf has been self scored for 100+ years, even on the absolute highest levels whether its a foursome or a tournament round with twosome.



begs the question why shoot SYO if you don't actually know how you stack up against the other shooters. 'several' is far too many for me to pay double the price per target and learn nothing.




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