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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:28 am 
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lt0026 wrote:
mwr01 wrote:
I prefer 4-person squads with trappers. The larger squad affords more time to see the targets and make a plan (maybe good, maybe not), and, with trappers/scorers, I do not have to fiddle with the controllers or the score cards. Makes for a more enjoyable outing; I would cheerfully pay a $10 premium for trappers.

Agree. I go to shoot. Not act as a trapper. I would gladly pay extra for qualified trappers. That expense is minuscule compared to the other costs and expenses involved in this game. I have no problem with another person having control throwing the targets and keeping score. Some shooters don't know the rules and bungle score cards, don't be so hard on the trappers until you try it for 4 days looking at thousands of targets.


and this would be my take on it as well. would VERY happily drop an extra $10 for trappers.

one thing to note in our area businesses of all types have had to seriously up their starting wages for non-skilled positions thanks to the windfall unemployment $$ Congress dumped on us. My teenager is making $13/hr as a food runner. I mean that is just nuts! Perhaps this is part of the reason why finding trappers is tough? So it could be that facilities need to up the $$ for trappers. And correspondingly up the cost to shooters.




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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:32 am 
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birdhunter39 wrote:
lt0026 wrote:
mwr01 wrote:
I prefer 4-person squads with trappers. The larger squad affords more time to see the targets and make a plan (maybe good, maybe not), and, with trappers/scorers, I do not have to fiddle with the controllers or the score cards. Makes for a more enjoyable outing; I would cheerfully pay a $10 premium for trappers.

Agree. I go to shoot. Not act as a trapper. I would gladly pay extra for qualified trappers. That expense is minuscule compared to the other costs and expenses involved in this game. I have no problem with another person having control throwing the targets and keeping score. Some shooters don't know the rules and bungle score cards, don't be so hard on the trappers until you try it for 4 days looking at thousands of targets.


and this would be my take on it as well. would VERY happily drop an extra $10 for trappers.

one thing to note in our area businesses of all types have had to seriously up their starting wages for non-skilled positions thanks to the windfall unemployment $$ Congress dumped on us. My teenager is making $13/hr as a food runner. I mean that is just nuts! Perhaps this is part of the reason why finding trappers is tough? So it could be that facilities need to up the $$ for trappers. And correspondingly up the cost to shooters.

I can tell you that here in Florida, attendance drops with every increase in tournament fees.

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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 9:39 am 
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When they asked Che' , are you an economist ? and he said , no but I am a communist and they said , that'll do...

...I am neither an economist nor a communist , but the clubs have done a horrible job of getting a cadre of trapper scorers. They don't like nor want the trouble. The clubs who do go to that trouble seem well attended. The clubs don't care , return our entry fees in free imaginary "punches" and offer almost nothing for the money.

And as likely as not throw stupid over the top targets that please almost no one.

Thanks. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:02 am 
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Perhaps there are two kinds of tourney shooters. The 'i want to see how i stack up' folks and the 'what am i getting for my money' folks. The latter will almost certainly be happier at charity shoots and i'm not sure it's wise to tailor NSCA shoots to suit them.

I feel like these discussions always end up with the club not making enough money. I don't think chasing the cheap shooters is gonna be a winning strategy. To me when you've got a customer base that frequently shows up with $6k golf carts and $8k shotguns you need to bring the service that these folks would expect from any other business they patronize.

IMO NSCA does next to nothing to protect the value of their brand and SYO shoots are example numero uno in this. If clubs aren't making enough $$ they need to be demanding NSCA do something about it under threat of dumping them and sticking with charity shoots.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:15 am 
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I know many clubs who have dumped registered shoots or at least cut WAY back on how many they will throw. Having a registered shoot with all of the inherent costs, then adding even more costs for a smaller number of shooters is insanity and the club loses money. Just like Walmart, volume - number of shooters run through - is the key to a club making money.

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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:26 am 
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How come the CPSA has no trouble finding trappers? And they are mandatory in CPSA.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:29 am 
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oneounceload wrote:
I know many clubs who have dumped registered shoots or at least cut WAY back on how many they will throw. Having a registered shoot with all of the inherent costs, then adding even more costs for a smaller number of shooters is insanity and the club loses money. Just like Walmart, volume - number of shooters run through - is the key to a club making money.

Very simple rule change. Those who don't want trappers shoot for targets only. No awards or punches. After all it's just for fun right?


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:40 am 
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@ lt: Because they pay a lot more to shoot sporting in GB than we do here.

The issue for clubs is tough. Throw a hard set and very few weekend warriors will show up; throw cupcakes, and only a few dedicated competitive sporting clay shooters will show up. Charge more and have trappers, and even fewer weekend warriors will show up, and then the competitors will b***h about your prices... The most successful clubs around here have learned to throw both hard and soft via side events. When the main course is set tough, the sides are softer; when the main is soft, the sides are challenging. A couple clubs even throw a "fun" main and FITASC on Saturday, and then a challenge main and FITASC on Sunday, or vice-versa...

More on cheating. If a D shooter grabs an extra clay or two due to phantom chips, it's probably not going to affect the outcome for HOA and RU. It becomes a bigger deal when it happens at the top of the game. Obviously FITASC is not SYO, but the mains and sides around here are. And cheating happens, but it's pretty rare. Around here it's become essentially non-existent at the top end because for the most part, everybody knows who the cheaters were and the club owners either talked to them or stopped letting them go out as 2--man squads. Then those folks either stopped participating at these clubs or cleaned up their acts.

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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:51 am 
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Cheating in any class has an impact in class for end of shoot year awards. Most of what I see are inflated scores at SYO and very different results (if they show up)in trapper scored events when the score cards are out of the hands of relatives and friends. I would gladly pay extra if it means the game having some level of integrity. If it's just about cost, I vote with my wallet. For some it's a race to the top by any means. Most clubs won't confront cheaters. They don't wish to lose customers. Especially those that are members.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:57 am 
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lt, I don't disagree with your position. But practicality suggests you aren't going to be shooting very much except for big blasts where trappers are mandatory...

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When the mind is right, the body will find a way...


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:04 am 
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Exactly. I consider SYO expensive practice. And fully understand that the Sgt. Schultz routine is in effect at SYO.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:09 am 
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Right! and in that sense SYO is a ridiculously expensive undertaking as compared to a regular trapper run NSCA event. I jumped into the tourney game head first with a nice dedicated target gun, cart and the like but damned if i want to throw money away on double priced practice!


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:38 am 
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I just started shooting NSCA events over the last few months. All have been Euro rotations but have only had one SYO. I don't know many folks in the community yet so quite a few of my rounds have been me solo with my gun cart. No need for me to cheat as its not going to help me get better. The challenge is the fun part for me.

I do believe I came across some of those "friendly" chips at the one SYO event I shot. This gentlemen 'shot' a 72 and won our class with 4 punches. The following week he managed to shoot a staggering 29 with trappers at each station. Bad days happen but seems suspicious to me :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:40 am 
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It's called serious form reversal. Wonder why?


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:41 am 
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Differing philosophies about what is expensive and what constitutes practice. All good ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:48 am 
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JacksBack wrote:
lt, I don't disagree with your position. But practicality suggests you aren't going to be shooting very much except for big blasts where trappers are mandatory...


And if we are talking score and class integrity, those big blasts are the only events that should be eligible to award punches for matriculation into AA and Master.

Talk about a rule change that would annoy everyone:(


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:59 am 
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No chance for any rule change that would impact the target tax. No matter how fair or reasonable.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:04 pm 
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mwr01 wrote:
JacksBack wrote:
lt, I don't disagree with your position. But practicality suggests you aren't going to be shooting very much except for big blasts where trappers are mandatory...


And if we are talking score and class integrity, those big blasts are the only events that should be eligible to award punches for matriculation into AA and Master.

Talk about a rule change that would annoy everyone:(


Why only AA and M? If your idea is sound, then why not apply it across the classes?


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:22 pm 
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If local clubs couldn’t award punches, they wouldn’t bother with registered events. Those of us who don’t travel to shoot would have no opportunity to shoot tournament-level targets.

All of the classes would mean more if only “vetted” events were qualified to award punches, but the change would effectively limit the registered game to shooters who were able/willing to travel to participate and to maybe a dozen or two clubs around the country - unintended but predictable consequences.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Tue Sep 08, 2020 12:41 pm 
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lt0026 wrote:
oneounceload wrote:
I know many clubs who have dumped registered shoots or at least cut WAY back on how many they will throw. Having a registered shoot with all of the inherent costs, then adding even more costs for a smaller number of shooters is insanity and the club loses money. Just like Walmart, volume - number of shooters run through - is the key to a club making money.

Very simple rule change. Those who don't want trappers shoot for targets only. No awards or punches. After all it's just for fun right?

Absolutely!
As long as you drop the price about 40%, fine with me; in fact that's what I did for years before friends convinced me to spend more for "registered" targets. Same day, same friends, same time, same targets - they were paying $75, and I was paying $40. I got the same challenge, but afterwards, I simply folded my scorecard and put it in my pocket.

I'd GLADLY go back to that arrangement, regardless of some unenforced NSCA rule to the contrary.



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