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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:26 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5710
SYO shoot. A shooter in C Class ties for HOA with a 95. The shooter has a 70.00 average and about 600 lifetime targets. Quite a form reversal.




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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:49 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2011 7:29 pm
Posts: 2745
Location: Central Maine
It is easiest to assume a B or C or D shooter that posts a high or winning score had to have cheated. Not saying they did or didn't but I have been on squads with several shooters when it looked like they were shooting trash can lids and everyone else was shooting at poker chips. It isn't the typical but it happens.

A shooter like this could be a rock star or it just might be that kind of day that doesn't come very often for the average Joe....

Every top dog and every exceptional regional shooter passed thru D and C and B on their way to the top.

Try to focus on the positive and not the negative in life and in your shooting life.

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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:52 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:18 pm
Posts: 537
That, is the type of shoot results that will garner attention to those shooters....and club, for years. Its a shame. Giving said shooters the kind of professional attention, is the only way to protect future events.

It goes hand in hand with poachers, cheating at a bass derby (big money at those for sure fuels the motivation). But heck, I know of guys that'll buy bird bands on eBay just to make their lanyard jingle a bunch and look good. How a shooter can accept a handshake for a score they didn't produce, is beyond me. My kid ever did that, it would be a short one way conversation and I'll leave it at that.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:56 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:18 pm
Posts: 537
dpe2002 wrote:
It is easiest to assume a B or C or D shooter that posts a high or winning score had to have cheated. Not saying they did or didn't but I have been on squads with several shooters when it looked like they were shooting trash can lids and everyone else was shooting at poker chips. It isn't the typical but it happens.

A shooter like this could be a rock star or it just might be that kind of day that doesn't come very often for the average Joe....

Every top dog and every exceptional regional shooter passed thru D and C and B on their way to the top.

Try to focus on the positive and not the negative in life and in your shooting life.


There may be times where this response would be applicable. I've seen it, on a course where Sk / IC gets it done and there are many c-d shooters posting in the 80's. Don't think its applicable in this case.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:07 am 
Tournament Grade
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Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 5:38 pm
Posts: 289
Location: Virginia
bdog58 wrote:
dpe2002 wrote:
It is easiest to assume a B or C or D shooter that posts a high or winning score had to have cheated. Not saying they did or didn't but I have been on squads with several shooters when it looked like they were shooting trash can lids and everyone else was shooting at poker chips. It isn't the typical but it happens.

A shooter like this could be a rock star or it just might be that kind of day that doesn't come very often for the average Joe....

Every top dog and every exceptional regional shooter passed thru D and C and B on their way to the top.

Try to focus on the positive and not the negative in life and in your shooting life.


There may be times where this response would be applicable. I've seen it, on a course where Sk / IC gets it done and there are many c-d shooters posting in the 80's. Don't think its applicable in this case.

I agree this looks a little suspicious..... but, for c or d shooter to post in the shoot in the 80's it has to be easy close coarse? I don't agree with that statement at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:09 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5710
The sudden and extreme form reversals should get attention, but they don't. But you know whats going on when you enter these events. And the clubs won't intervene with known ability or scorekeepers next time out. Expensive practice. Take it for what it is.
Disclaimer: The shooter wasn't in my class.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:18 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:20 pm
Posts: 22966
lt0026 wrote:
SYO shoot. A shooter in C Class ties for HOA with a 95. The shooter has a 70.00 average and about 600 lifetime targets. Quite a form reversal.

And maybe he got a lesson or a gun fitted and is about to explode upwards through the ranks. He made it from D to C, so he obviously won enough times to earn the punches necessary.
DPE mentioned it; everyone has that day where everything looks like a garbage can lid and there there are those days where you can't buy an "X". Without corroboration, you're making an assumption, and we all know what that means.......

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Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:21 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:02 am
Posts: 2477
Location: KS
SYO is what we have, and we have to live with it. However, there is a reason that CPSA does not allow SYO at registered events, and this is it.

With trappers, 90+ in “C” would have gotten a “good job” from everyone. With SYO, many will never believe it even if it was a straight-up result. That’s unfortunate.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 8:53 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5710
oneounceload wrote:
lt0026 wrote:
SYO shoot. A shooter in C Class ties for HOA with a 95. The shooter has a 70.00 average and about 600 lifetime targets. Quite a form reversal.

And maybe he got a lesson or a gun fitted and is about to explode upwards through the ranks. He made it from D to C, so he obviously won enough times to earn the punches necessary.
DPE mentioned it; everyone has that day where everything looks like a garbage can lid and there there are those days where you can't buy an "X". Without corroboration, you're making an assumption, and we all know what that means.......

And yet your post is full of assumptions. Like stated above. With scorekeepers it's an eye opener. Without it looks suspicious.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:33 am 
Tournament Grade
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Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:23 pm
Posts: 238
Location: Colorado
mwr01 wrote:
fatguywithafirearm wrote:
Interesting turn today at the warm up for the State Shoot in Colorado. Tough technical targets, some of the best shooters in the state ended up in a three way tie for top gun at 83. That is until late in the afternoon when a couple of youngerns from C class and D class posted scores of 91 and 84. Both shooters have 1700 lifetime targets each. The 91 shooter has shot 100 targets this year, the 84 shooter has 0 Registered targets this year. Can't wait to hear the stories at next weeks State Shoot.


Trappers or SYO?

SYO
I can agree a C or D class shorter can have a great day but those odd diminish when a C AND D class shooter have a great day on the same course M class shooters all had a bad day.
I can't accuse anyone of cheating but thought it was fitting for this the thread.
For the record the day I punched to B class I shot a mid 70score on a stiff course with a 2 man SYO squad. I also shot the last round of a five stand late in the day with trappers ands scored dead last. The 100degree heat during the 5 stand wasn't helping me any( the main was shot down in the trees with a lot of shade). But I wondered if it raised any eyebrows.


Last edited by fatguywithafirearm on Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:43 am 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:20 pm
Posts: 22966
And yet we recently had a M class shooter DQ'd for a few years for cheating, and he had been HOA a few times at shoots.
Shenanigans aren't limited to C or D class

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The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory, Aldo Gucci

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


Last edited by oneounceload on Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:28 am 
Field Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:50 am
Posts: 76
Well I'm a solid D class shooter as I just started shooting again.

But my scores on a non competive courses, including the course we are now discussing, went from low 50's with my citori 425 to 70's with my new CG Summit.

A gun change made that big of a change for me on easy courses.

Now to figure out the price to sell that citori.


Sent using Tapatalk


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:48 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:18 pm
Posts: 537
Cooper4141 wrote:
bdog58 wrote:
dpe2002 wrote:
It is easiest to assume a B or C or D shooter that posts a high or winning score had to have cheated. Not saying they did or didn't but I have been on squads with several shooters when it looked like they were shooting trash can lids and everyone else was shooting at poker chips. It isn't the typical but it happens.

A shooter like this could be a rock star or it just might be that kind of day that doesn't come very often for the average Joe....

Every top dog and every exceptional regional shooter passed thru D and C and B on their way to the top.

Try to focus on the positive and not the negative in life and in your shooting life.


There may be times where this response would be applicable. I've seen it, on a course where Sk / IC gets it done and there are many c-d shooters posting in the 80's. Don't think its applicable in this case.

I agree this looks a little suspicious..... but, for c or d shooter to post in the shoot in the 80's it has to be easy close coarse? I don't agree with that statement at all.


No, it doesn't. I've seen where a C would place near or at the top, master or HOA. But not 91 vs 83. And if hes clipping all the C score by 27....? We've got a local B thats putting it on right now. But hes done it consistently with other top local shooters. He isn't getting 95 while everyone else is getting 85 and below. I've shot with him....hes the real deal.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 11:58 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Jun 15, 2009 8:18 pm
Posts: 537
So I looked at the scores.

M 3 at 83, 2 at 82, 3 at 81. AA 79, 71. A 73, 70. B 69, 66. C 91, 64. D 84, 63.

Come up with your own conclusions.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:00 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:20 pm
Posts: 22966
There's no conclusion to draw without first hand evidence

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The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory, Aldo Gucci

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:01 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5710
I realize people want cheap easy punches, but this is getting really crazy. Sgt Schultz routine in action.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:13 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:51 pm
Posts: 2085
Location: S.E. Wisconsin
bdog58 wrote:
So I looked at the scores.

M 3 at 83, 2 at 82, 3 at 81. AA 79, 71. A 73, 70. B 69, 66. C 91, 64. D 84, 63.

Come up with your own conclusions.



He was a first time SC shooter that should have declared to a higher class.


We spend a lot of time accusing lower class shooters of cheating but could care less about Masters that only shoot a 65. Everybody has their day, good and bad.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:39 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5710
YevetS wrote:
bdog58 wrote:
So I looked at the scores.

M 3 at 83, 2 at 82, 3 at 81. AA 79, 71. A 73, 70. B 69, 66. C 91, 64. D 84, 63.

Come up with your own conclusions.



He was a first time SC shooter that should have declared to a higher class.


We spend a lot of time accusing lower class shooters of cheating but could care less about Masters that only shoot a 65. Everybody has their day, good and bad.

Steve

Who gets crushed by a shooter who follows the rules and shoots a 65?


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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:00 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:51 pm
Posts: 2085
Location: S.E. Wisconsin
lt0026 wrote:
YevetS wrote:
bdog58 wrote:
So I looked at the scores.

M 3 at 83, 2 at 82, 3 at 81. AA 79, 71. A 73, 70. B 69, 66. C 91, 64. D 84, 63.

Come up with your own conclusions.



He was a first time SC shooter that should have declared to a higher class.


We spend a lot of time accusing lower class shooters of cheating but could care less about Masters that only shoot a 65. Everybody has their day, good and bad.

Steve

Who gets crushed by a shooter who follows the rules and shoots a 65?


Not what I said or meant and you know it!

I said Everybody has their day, good and bad. Anybody can shoot an 85 on a good day and we have all had days of 65.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Two Person Squads
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:13 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5710
You can spin it however you wish. Everyone knows a suspicious score or a big form reversal when they see it. With scorekeepers, nothing to debate. Case closed. You can make excuses all you wish. Trust but verify.




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