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 Post subject: FITASC rule?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:49 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:24 am
Posts: 257
At a recent fitasc shoot, our squad finished our first parcours early, so walked over to the next parcours and stood probably 30 feet back. That squad was finishing their second peg. When they finished the second peg and moved to the third and final peg, their referee came back to us and said very cordially that we were not supposed to observe the targets before taking the field. No problem, we wandered off to other places. We were fine with complying with what he said, but it occurred to me later that this was a rule I had never read or heard about. I've been thru the rule book and can find nothing on this. I'm fine with the intent, just curious if it is in fact written somewhere.




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 Post subject: Re: FITASC rule?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 8:52 pm 
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There is usually a waiting place away from the parcour, not just for your scenario, but to ensure safety. That said, Folks can still see the targets, but not from the pegs so the angles, etc are not the same.

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The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory, Aldo Gucci

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


Last edited by oneounceload on Wed Oct 21, 2020 12:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: FITASC rule?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 5:03 am 
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Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 3:16 pm
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Location: Southeast MI
There is no current rule that prevents a competitor, or anyone else. from observing. The only mention of this in the current rules is 2.4 "The waiting positions must be as close as possible to the shooting positions, posing no distraction to the squad shooting and complying with the safety rules."

In addition to having what most folks think of as a "lot of rules," FITASC seems to be unique in changing rules with the wind. Rarely is there a year without some tweaking. As a result, there are dozens of rules that have come and gone. Unfortunately, some FITASC refs, especially those trained early in Europe, seem to think that any rule what has ever been must still be enforced, whether or not it's currently in the Rule Book. I have gotten into heated arguments with many well-respected refs over this very issue.

When confronted with a ruling from a FITASC ref that you disagree with, do what I do: calmly ask him/her to show you the rule in the current Rule Book. Every FITASC ref is required to have one when refereeing. If it isn't in the (current) Rule Book, it isn't (currently) a rule. If it's not in the (current) Rule Book, even if remembered by the ref, it cannot be enforced.

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Current NSSA/NSCA Rule book: http://nsca.nssa-nsca.org/rule-book/
Sporting Clays, 5-Stand, Super Sporting & Parcours de Chasse (FITASC)


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 Post subject: Re: FITASC rule?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:24 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon May 20, 2019 9:53 am
Posts: 1327
I had it in the back of my mind (a generally cluttered space filled with boobs, shotguns and other fun things) that this was a rule. No idea where I got the idea from.


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 Post subject: Re: FITASC rule?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:43 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5594
I have been to some shoots that have a clearly marked waiting area with refreshments and a shade canopy. About 20 yards from the pegs. Other shoots have nothing marked. Most of the time I sit in my cart at a safe distance and wait to be called. I have seen some rude (not on squad) people creep up onto the parcours tracing target lines.


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 Post subject: Re: FITASC rule?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:44 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2018 8:24 am
Posts: 257
thanks for the answers. like I said, I have no problem with the intent of the rule/non rule.....but of course it leads to the rhetorical question, would someone shooting that parcours later in the day not be allowed to observe targets as a spectator. you are right about the frequency of rule changes.....my wife shoots an auto and I started picking up her hulls. another ref (our first one) said that does not apply to autos anymore. an interesting game that they keep interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: FITASC rule?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:51 am 
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Location: Southeast MI
rans wrote:
thanks for the answers. like I said, I have no problem with the intent of the rule/non rule.....but of course it leads to the rhetorical question, would someone shooting that parcours later in the day not be allowed to observe targets as a spectator. you are right about the frequency of rule changes.....my wife shoots an auto and I started picking up her hulls. another ref (our first one) said that does not apply to autos anymore. an interesting game that they keep interesting.


And there you go.
It is in the current Rule Book, it still still a rule, it still does apply.

_________________
Current NSSA/NSCA Rule book: http://nsca.nssa-nsca.org/rule-book/
Sporting Clays, 5-Stand, Super Sporting & Parcours de Chasse (FITASC)


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 Post subject: Re: FITASC rule?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:22 am 
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Listen to Dr Mike who is a rule book expert and a damn good eyeball expert (meaning he enforces the rules well).

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 Post subject: Re: FITASC rule?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:18 am 
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Most bigger FITASC parcours layouts have dedicated staging, waiting or spectator viewing areas. And while not specifically in the rulebook, you still cannot walk out onto a parcours you're not currently shooting on.

Note: The "waiting position" referenced in the current rule book is for participating shooters in that FITASC squad and on that parcour, not the next squad shooters or spectators.

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NSCA #617422

When the mind is right, the body will find a way...


Last edited by JacksBack on Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: FITASC rule?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:19 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2012 6:40 am
Posts: 194
Rans

At the shoot you mention the Target Setter should have created a designated waiting point where shooters wait until called forward as per rule 2.4 mentioned by Dr Mike.
If there was no waiting point that was an error.

I am one of those 'trained early in Europe' referred to by Dr Mike (don't know about the well respected bit!)
The safety aspect of this is the most important, especially when shooting old system where shooters on peg 3 might be shooting back towards peg 1, so you do not want anyone wandering into the layout. It does happen.

Potential distraction is self explanatory.

Not in the current written rules (nor in my past ones going back to 94) but I was taught and been instructed at Majors that the only people with a right to come beyond the waiting point are the squad of shooters, ground staff, Management or Jury Members (when not competing). Friends and family may be permitted at the Referees discretion (and subject to appropriate PPE being worn). Some of the larger shoots will have the Peg area cordoned off, in effect creating a No Entry Zone
Over the years I have sent hundreds of shooters back to the waiting point, politely ask some family /friends to go back if no glasses or hearing protection, and a few of the FITASC executive if they are shooting in the next squad.

The point over the waiting squad not seeing the targets is a bit of a bye product in my view. Course setters largely like to surprise shooters, but its all depends on terrain and tree cover etc. For most shoots its time wasting having waiting points minutes away from the squad just to keep the targets a surprise.

Waiting point means where the next squad (s) should wait until called forward, not that its a bag drop whilst shooters wander all-over the parcour.

Dr Mike - Its been a while, hope you are well. Are you going to Providence Hill?

Regards

Leigh


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 Post subject: Re: FITASC rule?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 6:37 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 3:16 pm
Posts: 3746
Location: Southeast MI
Thanks for the kind words, guys.

Still on the mend (right hip replaced June 25, left knee replaced Sept 4). Attacking the physical therapy twice a week. Funny thing, 95% of the PT patients whine and do the minimum required. My PTs have remarked “no one else sweats at therapy!” It might hurt, but the work I’m putting in is for me, so I’m going all out.

Had to miss refereeing two big shoots in the last several weeks. But just today, I hobbled 1-1/2 mi around the Sporting Clays course at Island Lake, one of two Pat Lieske facilities near me. Hadn’t shot a shotgun in 7 weeks... felt really good to be out.

_________________
Current NSSA/NSCA Rule book: http://nsca.nssa-nsca.org/rule-book/
Sporting Clays, 5-Stand, Super Sporting & Parcours de Chasse (FITASC)


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 Post subject: Re: FITASC rule?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2020 7:15 pm 
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Fitasc main at Nationals today had no waiting areas, new style course. At least none i saw. Or any ref's, 24 on the course today, that asked a squad behind those still shooting to step back or wait in carts, or anything else to keep them from previewing targets. Even saw a guy in squad behind us walk up with a range finder to range targets we were still shooting, first time for everything. Does a range finder count as an "aiming device"?? See what happens when ya let the damn golfers & deer hunters in the game. There goes the neighborhood...


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 Post subject: Re: FITASC rule?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 2:16 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5594
Did I miss a rule change? Numbers are OK on the shell pouch now? That's what posted on the Parcours at the Nationals.


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 Post subject: Re: FITASC rule?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:02 pm 
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I'm blind -- totally missed this in the 2020 rulebook :shock:

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NSCA #617422

When the mind is right, the body will find a way...


Last edited by JacksBack on Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: FITASC rule?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:25 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 3:16 pm
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Location: Southeast MI
Does anyone read or follow the rules any more?

2020 NSCA Rule Book

17.1 Competition participants must be properly dressed. Short shorts are not permitted; only long shorts (Bermuda type at most 5 cm above the knee) are permitted. It is not permissible to be naked under a skeet vest. Shirts must have at least short sleeves and a collar or, without a collar, must have a round neck (like a tee shirt). Wearing sandals is not permitted for safety reasons.
The shooter´s competitors number must be attached to his/her upper back between shoulders and waist, be fully visible and worn in its entirety. Failure to observe this rule is penalized by a first warning from the referee. Failure to rectify this requirement will lead to further penalties that may extend to exclusion from the competition by decision of the jury.
At the opening ceremony, during the parade of National teams, their members have to be in the attire of their National team, or wearing a pair of pressed trousers & blazer. At the closing ceremony, all the awarded shooters shall attend the prize giving, either in the attire of their National team, or wearing a pair of pressed trousers & blazer.

_________________
Current NSSA/NSCA Rule book: http://nsca.nssa-nsca.org/rule-book/
Sporting Clays, 5-Stand, Super Sporting & Parcours de Chasse (FITASC)


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 Post subject: Re: FITASC rule?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 3:27 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5594
That's right Dr. I thought I missed something. And in Sporting at the Nationals we have refs now calling centered instead of dead? :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: FITASC rule?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:09 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 07, 2015 5:52 pm
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Location: Michigan
lt0026 wrote:
That's right Dr. I thought I missed something. And in Sporting at the Nationals we have refs now calling centered instead of dead? :roll:


PC culture ? We can't shoot targets dead, we spray them centered :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: FITASC rule?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:47 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 20, 2019 9:53 am
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good grief if a trapper calls 'centered' i will correct him/her. no room for that pc horsepucks in our hobby.


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 Post subject: Re: FITASC rule?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:53 pm 
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lt0026 wrote:
That's right Dr. I thought I missed something. And in Sporting at the Nationals we have refs now calling centered instead of dead? :roll:

Dead is also incorrect; it should be called "one".

_________________
The bitterness of poor quality is remembered long after the sweetness of low price has faded from memory, Aldo Gucci

Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience, George Carlin


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 Post subject: Re: FITASC rule?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 7:32 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2008 11:12 am
Posts: 5594
Read it again. I said sporting.




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