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 Post subject: Re: Shot size 71/2 vs 8 shoot-difference and question
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 12:17 am 
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Wonder what this guy used.

https://youtu.be/D3v2BlsAQg8




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 Post subject: Re: Shot size 71/2 vs 8 shoot-difference and question
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:18 pm 
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Standing right next to the machine, known flights? Yeah, I could do that.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size 71/2 vs 8 shoot-difference and question
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:08 pm 
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Rastoff wrote:
Standing right next to the machine, known flights? Yeah, I could do that.


If you're standing right next to the machine, just about any shot size works. 9, 8.5, 8, 7.5, 6, isn't a whole lot of difference in the results.


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 Post subject: Re: Shot size 71/2 vs 8 shoot-difference and question
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 8:43 pm 
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Contacted 3 major clay target manufacturer's on this subject. Only received 1 reply:
Force and # of pellets that will break a clay target
"There are a number of studies that have been done on this surprising enough. The number of BB needed to break a target is 1 it might be a chip but 1- 7.5 or #8 can break a target. Pellets moving at 800 fps - 1125 fps carry enough force to break a target. As I tell students never think that because something seems far away it can't be fatally hit with a pellet. To prove this point you can suspend targets at different distances and shoot at them to see the results it will surprise you. The different variables  that it takes to break a target can depend on speed of both projectiles (forward & away) ambient temperature, as well angle of impact. But a target can be broken with just one pellet"

So just because I have never personally experienced this, I am ready to admit my personal experience and interest in this subject over the last 17 years may be inadequate.
I still prefer centering the target and turning it to dust which is accomplished by focusing on a small part of the target no bigger than a dime.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size 71/2 vs 8 shoot-difference and question
PostPosted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:01 pm 
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"I still prefer centering the target and turning it to dust which is accomplished by focusing on a small part of the target no bigger than a dime"

You are lucky to have that type of eyesight. I just see an orange blob against the background.


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 Post subject: Re: Shot size 71/2 vs 8 shoot-difference and question
PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2017 3:14 pm 
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Jim Tyner wrote:
You are lucky to have that type of eyesight. I just see an orange blob against the background.


+1

I've better than 20/20 (corrected) eyesight, shoot with both eyes open and only see an orange blob too.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size 71/2 vs 8 shoot-difference and question
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:24 pm 
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As to shot size and range, I have always said that at near point blank range, it doesn't make much difference what shot size you use, and when you go out to 100 yards, again, it doesn't make much difference what shot size you use.
At 10 yards, a .410 loaded with #9 shot will kill a turkey just as dead as a 10 gauge loaded with #4 shot.


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 Post subject: Re: Shot size 71/2 vs 8 shoot-difference and question
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:14 pm 
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The answer, along with proof and all the associated science, is here: https://www.amazon.com/Sporting-Shotgun ... 0956662706

Or you can save yourself the money and just believe me when I say, bigger is better. It only takes one pellet to break a clay so, pick the largest pellet; 7.5.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size 71/2 vs 8 shoot-difference and question
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:30 pm 
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Rastoff wrote:
It only takes one pellet to break a clay so,

While one pellet can theoretically break a target, we've seen too many unbroken targets that had one or two or more holes through them to imply that one pellet will break a target.

---- OR ----

If one pellet of any size can break a target, then why not give yourself 68 more chances to break the bird? (There are 68 more #8's in a 1 1/8oz load than there are #7 1/2's)


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 Post subject: Re: Shot size 71/2 vs 8 shoot-difference and question
PostPosted: Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:00 pm 
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That's why I shoot 8s from the 27.


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 Post subject: Re: Shot size 71/2 vs 8 shoot-difference and question
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:15 am 
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OK guys this could go on for pages, and it will never be settled. So, consider this: I have measured the size of the shot in many factory shotshells from all the big ammo companies and bagged shot from the available lead shot companies. My conclusion is that the industry standard of variance for shot size is indeed 1/2 shot size either way. So, you can have a box or bag marked 7 1/2 and it can contain #8 or #7 size shot and still be in "tolerance". My experience is that most shot is undersized from what the box/bag claims but not always. Some brands of bagged shot seem to run closer to the size marked than others. I have a bag of Eagle shot that is marked #9 but actually measures #10. That same shot is also very soft and not what I would call "Magnum" shot like the bag claims. This brings up another point, does soft chilled shot break a target easier than hard shot due to the pellet flattening and transferring more energy as it strikes a glancing blow on a target than hard shot that might only skip off the surface? I don't know but it gives one something to think about. So those of you that are wondering if the number 8 shot in your shells are big enough to do the best job when in fact they might not be 8's but a mix of 8's, 8 1/2's or even 7 1/2's. I for one am not going to bother much about it but just try my best to center up the target on every shot.


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 Post subject: Re: Shot size 71/2 vs 8 shoot-difference and question
PostPosted: Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:36 am 
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Have you measured many cut-opened shells? If so, what size do those 7.5's and 8's run?


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 Post subject: Re: Shot size 71/2 vs 8 shoot-difference and question
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 7:33 am 
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DallasCMT wrote:
Have you measured many cut-opened shells? If so, what size do those 7.5's and 8's run?

Fifteen years ago, I cut open some AA's and some STS's. I also procured some bulk shot (Eagle, as I recall?). I measured 100 shot from each sample, which were identified on the hulls and the bag as number eights.
The actual sizes were all over the board. The AA's, to my surprise were the worst, with the normal bell-curve results showing about half the shot being right at .090" +/- .002, but with a significant/large number of shot falling well outside the norm. Shot ranged in sizes from .130" (#4) to .055" (#11 1/2). It was eye-opening, to say the least.
The STS was nearly as bad, with a spread from 6's to 10's, but with a steeper bell curve. The bulk shot was about par with the STS in this respect.

I performed the same experiment about five years later and was pleased to see that the QC was much improved in all three samples; the outlier shot was reduced both in number and size extremes. If one were to extrapolate those two tests, then the shot sizes in today's premium target loads should be very, very uniform.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size 71/2 vs 8 shoot-difference and question
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:08 am 
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A story that may offer some info.

Yesterday after shooting 5-stand, a friend said lets go shoot Trap. The only gun I had with me was a Guerini Impact O/U with IC chokes in it and it shoots about 50/50. My ammo was 1oz of 8s (Herters). Missed the first shot then ran 24. Moved back to the 22 and still broke 20.

In competition I shoot a Trap gun unsingle set up to shoot 70/30 with IM choke and use 1 1/8oz of 8s. For me 8s are as good as 7 1/2s. I may start using the flat shooter more often for trap. Wondering about the hype with chokes too.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size 71/2 vs 8 shoot-difference and question
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:16 pm 
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Of course you can break targets from the 16 with an improved cylinder choke, you just cannot consistently break all the targets from the 16. Now, if you are just shooting for fun, it does not matter what you shoot a 22 or 24 or whatever as long as you are having fun.

However, if you are shooting in competition then trap becomes a 10 target game. Most reasonably competent shooters can hit 90 out of 100 targets. It is those other 10 targets that separates the classes and the closer you get to the 6 through 10 targets getting that extra percentage point becomes 10 times harder than the one before.

This is why you cannot afford to lose targets for any other reason other than you just did not point that one correctly. So, you need to shoot enough choke for the distance your breaking targets, you need to use as many pellets as you are allowed in the size you prefer, you need to have a gun that fits, you need to have your fundamentals correct, you need to have a higher POI because the targets are rising, you need to shoot one eye if you have even the occasional cross dominance and you need to put a lease trigger if you suffer from trigger freeze. And, you need to practice.


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 Post subject: Re: Shot size 71/2 vs 8 shoot-difference and question
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:36 pm 
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Amen, JT.


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 Post subject: Re: Shot size 71/2 vs 8 shoot-difference and question
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:33 pm 
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The only 100 I've ever broken at trap was with #9 shot!


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 Post subject: Re: Shot size 71/2 vs 8 shoot-difference and question
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:28 pm 
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I was shooting black powder muzzle loading trap last Saturday and I had an abysmal score, 9/15 on their "20 yard" trap match. I put it in quotes because it's really around 22 yards. It's not exactly a regulation trap house. Last October at the same field, I broke 14/15 at the same distance. Then I got to thinking, I remember using 7-1/2 shot last October but this time I used 8 for everything. The higher retained velocity and the higher pellet energy may have made the difference. After picking up a few birds that looked like this, I believe I was hitting a lot of birds that weren't breaking. Some of those pellets didn't make it completely through the bird. The guy pulling the birds told me that he often saw dust but no break.
Maybe I just need to put more gunpowder down the barrel, I was using 90 grains FFFg and it chronographed at around 1090 fps three yards from the muzzle. If I can't break them, at least I can make a lot of noise. But after seeing this, I think I'll go to 7-1/2 for anything farther away than 16 yards.


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 Post subject: Re: Shot size 71/2 vs 8 shoot-difference and question
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:39 pm 
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Hmmm, WF Bios, probably 100+fps either way, dome hits on the left side of the target. How cold was it?


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 Post subject: Re: Shot size 71/2 vs 8 shoot-difference and question
PostPosted: Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:55 pm 
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Lets talk about kinetic energy and shot hardness, shot hardness being my interest these days.
If you have a single shot with a hardness of 9 and an equal shot with a hardness of 7 what has a greater probability of breaking the target. I would postulate the softer shot because it should deform on impact and transfer more energy into the clay than a shot that's hard resulting in a pierced clay.

I'm all ears.




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