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 Post subject: Re: Which choke for singles?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 3:02 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:20 am
Posts: 2169
Location: San Diego, CA
bigedberg wrote:
You can't "choke" for good scores.

If this is true, then why do some say shooting Full will make you a better shooter?
If chokes don't affect scores, why advocate for Full when any choke should do as well as any other choke?
I believe you can improve your scores by using the best choke constriction...unless, of course, you typically post 400x400's. Using the proper choke in trap is just as important as using the proper choke in skeet or sporting or hunting. The controversy comes in when different people have different definitions of "proper".
Can you tell me why you don't recommend Turkey Full or Super Full chokes for singles?

bigedberg wrote:
when you get to the point where you are shooting good scores you will end up with the imp. mod. or the full anyway. Then why not start with these chokes?


For the same reason the golf pro at your country club probably would not recommend that a duffer use the same clubs/golf balls that Tiger Woods uses. Or that the tennis pro who would probably not recommend the same racquet for me that Rafael Nadal uses to win championships. Neither I nor the duffer can utilize the capabilities and limitations those tools bring to their games. The experts can. Same with trap.

I am not advocating that everyone use Modified for singles; many are good enough to break 100's with Full. But many more of us are not that good yet, and might get an "X" with the Modified when the 'point' is off just enough that it would produce a "O" with a tighter pattern.
After all, isn't the whole point of shooting to get the best score you can every time you shoot?



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"The sole false perspective is that which claims to be the only one there is." Jose Ortego y Gasset


Last edited by code5coupe on Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Which choke for singles?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:28 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:46 am
Posts: 952
Location: Wisconsin
I'm through trying to explain this. It seems you feel that a more open choke will improve a persons 16 yard scores and I know that you can't be convinced to think differently. I have shot trap for 50+ years and learned a lot from some very gifted shooters. I also am sure that each and everyone of them would disagree with you on this subject. Have a great day. Ed


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 Post subject: Re: Which choke for singles?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:33 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:20 am
Posts: 2169
Location: San Diego, CA
bigedberg wrote:
I'm through trying to explain this.

But you haven't explained why you hold to your position, Ed. Other than, "the big boys use Full and that's good enough for me." I was expecting a thoughtful dissertation on why trapshooters who regularly score in the low twenties/high teens would benefit from using/continuing to use Full choke.


bigedberg wrote:
It seems you feel that a more open choke will improve a persons 16 yard scores

Only those shooters who can't regularly score a 25/25, or 100/100. My advice is directed towards those who are looking to improve their singles scores....and I've explained why I feel that way....at length.
Note, I'm not trying to convince you that you should use a Modified choke for singles; your mind was clearly made up years ago. No, I'm trying to present sound arguments so others who are questioning their choice of choke can make an informed decision.

_________________
"The sole false perspective is that which claims to be the only one there is." Jose Ortego y Gasset


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 Post subject: Re: Which choke for singles?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:31 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:18 am
Posts: 39
If you shoot an open choke for 16 how does that help your overall ability? Becoming a more precise shooter is what moves you back. Breaking decent scores at short yardage with an open choke will most likely slow down your effort to become a viable 27 yard shooter. I use the same fixed choke on the 16 that I shoot on the 27. I also recommend Tom Wilkinson to help you get the right amount of choke.


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 Post subject: Re: Which choke for singles?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:48 am 
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Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:20 am
Posts: 2169
Location: San Diego, CA
There may be some validity in that, but the original question was "what is the best choke for singles". That is the subject I'm addressing.

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"The sole false perspective is that which claims to be the only one there is." Jose Ortego y Gasset


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 Post subject: Re: Which choke for singles?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:21 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:18 am
Posts: 39
OK, I see the point you're making. I just don't see why doing something at one yardage that may hinder your ability to shoot at longer yardage would be beneficial in the long run.


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 Post subject: Re: Which choke for singles?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:07 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:45 am
Posts: 284
Wouldn't the pattern be about the same ?

LM at 16 and full at 25 ? Ounce at 16 and 1 and 1/8 at 25 ?

I'm just guessing, I'm not a serious trap shooter. Dad was, he shot a more open choke for singles than he did in handicap.


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 Post subject: Re: Which choke for singles?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:00 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:18 am
Posts: 39
I have no problem with a more open choke for singles. I'm sure most probably shoot that way. I just happen to subscribe to the theory that using the same choke for singles and handicap forces you to be very precise on singles which helps when you move back. Either way is fine.


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 Post subject: Re: Which choke for singles?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:39 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 6:57 pm
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I'm sorry ATP71 but that is an illogical argument. If were correct, one should practice with a .410.


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 Post subject: Re: Which choke for singles?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:55 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:18 am
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Illogical to you perhaps but most of the All Americans subscribe to tight chokes for singles and handicap so I'll stay with their thinking


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 Post subject: Re: Which choke for singles?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 9:25 am 
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Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 6:57 pm
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We can assume then, ATP that you are an All American?


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 Post subject: Re: Which choke for singles?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:23 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:18 am
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No, I'm not but you do seem to do a lot of assuming so please continue. I did complete my Grand Slam many years ago. I assume you have also or would I be wrong in assuming that?


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 Post subject: Re: Which choke for singles?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:22 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:46 am
Posts: 952
Location: Wisconsin
ATP71: First of all congratulations on your "Grand Slam" achievement. That is quite an accomplishment. If you look back on "page 2" of this thread, you will see ("High Lakes") Steve Maltzan's comment on this subject. It about says it all. The really good shooters prefer AND recommend the tighter chokes. The shooters that have not achieved a very good average many times give poor advice. This is especially hurtful to the newer shooters. I haven't shot registered trap in many years. Never did get above a 97 average in singles and only got to the 25 yard line in handicap. (Did it all with a Model 12 trap with a fixed full choke). I have a friend who also achieved the "Grand Slam".
I also knew Vic Reinders who achieved everything in trap to include being a national champion several times in his career. (Using a Model 31 Remington with a fixed full choke, which he used from the time he started shooting trap) These shooters along with many others maintained that you use a full or improved modified for the sport of trap. I 'm sure that these shooters recommendations carry "more weight" than advice given by a shooter who struggles with poor averages. JMHO. Ed


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 Post subject: Re: Which choke for singles?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:54 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:18 am
Posts: 39
Bigedberg, I would wholeheartedly agree with everything you said. On another note I understand you may get a bad read on a single or even a couple broken targets but if you watch a shooter over the course of a few targets you can get a read on whether they might be a little high, a little low or in front or behind. If I'm standing next to Kiner, or Carmichael or Leo, which I have, and they tell me it looks like a shooter is a little high I'll take their word for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Which choke for singles?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:57 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 6:57 pm
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First, congrats on the GS. I don't have one and will probably never shoot enough ATA in the future to get one but I do have the 200 straight and I did earn my way back to the 27 in 14 months shooting a Briley LF. Now I shoot an XF .040 at the 27 but change out to an IM at the 16. Here is where I compete. http://tricountytrap.com/result/pdf/201 ... 0cover.pdf

The point is that the best participants in any sport are the best for reasons that never are inclusive of equipment. For years Leo beat the snot out of people with a relatively cheap 1100.

Learning to point each shot correctly up to a person's absolute ability to do that will not be dictated by the difference breaks between an F, IM or M choke. It will be mostly dependent on how many repetitions the get before they hit their talent wall. It is that simple.


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 Post subject: Re: Which choke for singles?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:26 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:18 am
Posts: 39
Tyner - OK then, thanks for the clarification. I along with many others (some, very good shooters) stand corrected. Perhaps you could do a video dispelling all the misinformation out there. Leo was a great friend and a very smart individual it's amazing he got things so wrong. Have a good day I'm done with this.


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 Post subject: Re: Which choke for singles?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:03 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:20 am
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Location: San Diego, CA
ATP: the best shooters...the ones who use and recommend Full choke from the 16....are good enough to break 'em all with Full. The rest of us can use a little help now and then. A more open choke can be that help.
That's the whole purpose of choking; to make it easier for the shooter to break/kill his bird.

Too many labor under the false assumption that what is best for the top half-of-one-percent is also the best for the rest of us. That includes some of the top half-of-one-percent.

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"The sole false perspective is that which claims to be the only one there is." Jose Ortego y Gasset


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 Post subject: Re: Which choke for singles?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:31 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 1:18 am
Posts: 39
I understand what you're saying and have no problem with your thinking but don't sell yourself short. I don't know your age or commitment to trap shooting but you still might surprise yourself. You understand the sport and I'm sure you've had your share of success but there's probably some good things still in your future. I also understand that at some point all of us decide, are we still wanting to beat ourselves silly practicing to get to another level or have we reached the point where we still enjoy shooting and look forward to the shoots but don't relish a lot of practice each week as age forces diminishing returns. Either way, have fun, enjoy your shooting.


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 Post subject: Re: Which choke for singles?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:54 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:29 am
Posts: 57
code5coupe wrote:
There may be some validity in that, but the original question was "what is the best choke for singles". That is the subject I'm addressing.

Ive followed this thread closely and have heard alot of responses.I try to
be very precise in my questions but i think somehow there was more read into the question than what i was asking.like i said im brand new in the sport and asked specifally about a 16 yard choke because at this point im not good enough nor have I developed confidence to even attempt shooting from any handicap position on the line. I need beginners help at 16 yards and from what i have seen at my club 99% of the guys shooting experienced or not are shooting from 16 yards,very few shoot doubles.I do appreciate all post but please dont turn this post into an argument.Remember it was my post and it seems it turned into a pissing contest between folks that is just not needed or helpful.


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 Post subject: Re: Which choke for singles?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:25 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 27, 2013 7:19 pm
Posts: 461
Location: Indian Head Country Wisconsin
High Lakes wrote:
At the college SCTP level. We take all those that want to shoot. Some with high school experience and others have very little experience. Those coming from high school shooting have had coaches looking at basics. A few have accomplished better than average scores, most are short of average. We also use Phil Kiners clinic video and advanced technique coaching by very accomplished shooting coaches. I'm the ATA shooter with just short of joining the quarter million club. The other coach shoots very well, but non-registered. We both know why we shoot well.

We start all our students on the patterning board with a full choke. Work on gun fit and POI setting. Then move on to the 16 yard line with minimum 25 thousands choke (mod) to assess individual skills. Look for problems, work at technique and muscle memory. When the shooter can stay above 20 every box we assess how well they break the targets and looking for eye issues / vision. Almost all cases of raising average the shooter moves on to 30+ thousands choke (IMP MOD) and reflects on their target breaks. Confidence of crushed targets is the difference between our championship shooters and those that continue to try to improve.

If you are chipping, chunking or have at best star burst breaks, you will never be a top end shooter at any level of competition. Get some smoke to become an improved level shooter. You must learn how to and why you break or lose targets.

Maltz


In my opinion this was the best advice for your situation based on your comment above. Figure out where your gun shoots and if it fits by patterning it. Correct that if there is an issue. Then shoot mod choke till you can consistently score in the 20's. Then if you want to progress faster, quicker tighten your choke up as he has his students do. Maltz is a very accomplished registered trap shooter and a trap coach too if that helps you assess his answer better.




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