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 Post subject: Semi Auto Ettiquette
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:18 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 7:40 pm
Posts: 50
I would love to have an O/U to participate in trap but economically it is just not going to work. I realize people do not want to have shells flying by when at the line, but how bad is it to use a semi for trap? Is there some heads up to give to the others shooting that I will be using a semi? Try to position myself next to someone understanding? I have only shot with friends in the past. i am hoping to go to the local club to get more involved in clay sports but certainly do not want to get off on the wrong foot. Any pointers to be polite when shooting a semi for trap?
Thanks.




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 Post subject: Re: Semi Auto Ettiquette
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 11:55 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 6:57 pm
Posts: 2487
Get a shell deflector for your gun. Problem solved.


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 Post subject: Re: Semi Auto Ettiquette
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 11:24 am 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Sat May 07, 2011 8:17 am
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Location: Piedmont North Carolina
I always used a shell catcher and never closed my action until it was my turn to shoot.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi Auto Ettiquette
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 4:41 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 6119
Location: Eastern Nebraska
I have shot with a number of guys that use semi- autos AND shell deflectors or shell catchers. No problem whatsoever- happy to shoot with them again. I have shot next to guys with semi autos and I did not realize they were shooting a semi till we walked back to the bench. I have also had guys with semi autos bounce hulls off my ankles or have them bounce along the concrete, hit the microphone and and trigger it just about the time I am ready to call pull. I have had guys with pumps or autos close the action and trigger the trap about the time I am ready to call pull. There are guys that say you have to ignore this stuff, you have to concentrate. Maybe easy for them to do, not for me. The ATA rule says don't do any thing that substantially interferes with another shooter. That seems pretty straightforward to me and really should cover it.


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 Post subject: Re: Semi Auto Ettiquette
PostPosted: Thu Nov 24, 2016 10:22 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Sep 20, 2013 7:33 pm
Posts: 84
Location: Western Maryland
+1 on what oldbirdhntr said

I use my Fabarm XLR5 sometimes for trap and use a shell catcher. If there isn't a shell catcher made for your particular gun, you could try one of the 'universal' wire type models or experiment with two wide rubber bands around the receiver covering the ejection port just forward of where the bolt handle would come to rest.


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 Post subject: Re: Semi Auto Ettiquette
PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:19 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 6119
Location: Eastern Nebraska
There have been a number of times where I changed stations and noticed 5 empty hulls in the grass right in front of the shooting station. I thought "hmmm, he must gr using an auto with a shell deflector." I never even realized this till I saw the hulls in the grass. When no one realizes you are using an auto till they see the hulls in front of the firing line, you are NOT interfering with anyone else.

To the OP: we are always happy to see new shooters. We really don't care what kind of gun they are using. All anyone asks is that you not interfere with or distract any other shooter. If you are not taking way, way longer than other shooters, not bouncing empties off of other shooters or mike stands, and not triggering the trap when you close the action, you are FINE.
And of course, never pointing a loaded gun anywhere but down range, or any gun at any person, at any time.


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 Post subject: Re: Semi Auto Ettiquette
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:27 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 6:45 am
Posts: 91
One of the things happening is all the clay programs for youth. They are starting to put more and more kids on trap lines at clubs. That is a big positive.

The reality is many of these kids are shooting gas operated semi-autos to reduce recoil. Many of which don't have shell catchers or deflectors available. Hell even a Beretta A300 Outlander doesn't have one available.

People need to be patient with semi-autos. They are out there building second amendment passion in the next generation just when many thought it was too late.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi Auto Ettiquette
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2016 11:00 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 6119
Location: Eastern Nebraska
Yes, we are all happy to see new young shooters. But, NO, we do not have to be patient. A rubber band costs about a penny. Get one, use one. It ain't that complicated. Personally, I believe the REALITY is that many of these kids are shooting gas operated autos because their parents read a lot of gun magazines, shoot a couple boxes of shells a year, and think they know this stuff. Your kid will be a lot better off with a 9 pound BT99 that fits (because it was adjusted to fit) than a 6 pound auto that came off the shelf and does not fit worth a damn. I believe this because I have shot with a variety of high school girls that might weigh 100 pounds and grade school boys (12 years) of similar weight. They go out and shoot 200-300 1 ounce loads a day without problems in Citoris and BT-99's. And, most of them would be just as upset as me if some kid was bouncing hulls off their ankles.


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 Post subject: Re: Semi Auto Ettiquette
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 9:59 am 
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Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 6:45 am
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albatros wrote:
Yes, we are all happy to see new young shooters. But, NO, we do not have to be patient. A rubber band costs about a penny. Get one, use one. It ain't that complicated. Personally, I believe the REALITY is that many of these kids are shooting gas operated autos because their parents read a lot of gun magazines, shoot a couple boxes of shells a year, and think they know this stuff. Your kid will be a lot better off with a 9 pound BT99 that fits (because it was adjusted to fit) than a 6 pound auto that came off the shelf and does not fit worth a damn. I believe this because I have shot with a variety of high school girls that might weigh 100 pounds and grade school boys (12 years) of similar weight. They go out and shoot 200-300 1 ounce loads a day without problems in Citoris and BT-99's. And, most of them would be just as upset as me if some kid was bouncing hulls off their ankles.


... Nevermind, it's not worth it.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi Auto Ettiquette
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:10 am 
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gogetthedogs wrote:
I realize people do not want to have shells flying by when at the line, but how bad is it to use a semi for trap?


It is easy. Many (most) autoloaders eject forward.


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 Post subject: Re: Semi Auto Ettiquette
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:43 am 
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My Super X One ejects forward and slightly to the right on to the grass between me and the station to my right. It has never been a problem at all

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 Post subject: Re: Semi Auto Ettiquette
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:08 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 6:45 am
Posts: 91
casonet wrote:
My Super X One ejects forward and slightly to the right on to the grass between me and the station to my right. It has never been a problem at all


Exactly. Both my boys shoot semi-autos and they are always picking up their hulls in the grass out front. i don't think I have ever seen one land on the concrete station pad. I would love to know which semi-auto is throwing hulls at ankles. If I know, I will steer my team away from those model(s).

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 Post subject: Re: Semi Auto Ettiquette
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:25 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:41 am
Posts: 16
albatros wrote:
Personally, I believe the REALITY is that many of these kids are shooting gas operated autos because their parents read a lot of gun magazines, shoot a couple boxes of shells a year, and think they know this stuff.


My kid shoots an SA because that is what the instructors and club provided to him when he started shooting trap through the 4H program.

He shot a Weatherby, a Remington and one other brand. Once he got the bug they moved him to an 1100 trap gun that they use as a bridge to either an SKB or BT99. If he ever makes that step is when they said we would talk about buying a gun. They have a stable of guns they use to cultivate and help youth shooters.

They have been running a pretty successful youth shooting program with many state winning teams/individuals and put a number of kids on college shooting teams. I am inclined to follow their lead.


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 Post subject: Re: Semi Auto Ettiquette
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 11:37 am 
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Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 6:45 am
Posts: 91
Here is a great article I share with parents about buying the right shotgun. Parents buying semi-auto shotguns has very little to do with "parents read a lot of gun magazines". It has everything to do with making a choice that's right for the youth and not the stodgy old trap elitist that may be standing next to them.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/articles/ ... -christmas

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 Post subject: Re: Semi Auto Ettiquette
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 1:46 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:09 pm
Posts: 6119
Location: Eastern Nebraska
If an auto puts the shells in the grass out front I could care less how this is accomplished and have absolutely zero problems with anyonme shooting such an auto. I have shot with lots of people from ages 12-90. A fair number of them used pumps or autos. Most of them were zero problem. They had shell deflectors, shell catchers, they were designed to eject to the front, they used tubber bands, whatever. But there are some that eject to the side and they bounce along the concrete and hit the next shooter's ankles or the mike stand triggering a target. This is a problem that can be solved, it can be solved quite easily. The ATA does have a rule about interfering with other shooters. It takes a one cent rubber band to comply with the rule. Why should some shooters be exempted from the rule when it is so simple to comply? If a youth shooter bounces hulls off a 12 year old next to him it is still a violation of the rules and is inconsiderate, despite the fact that the kid being distracted is not a stodgy old trap elitist. I have shot to the right of 12 year girls and boys. Several times it was their first registerd shoot. We got along fine, they were great kids, I'd be happy to shoot with any of them again, and I think they feel the same about me.


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 Post subject: Re: Semi Auto Ettiquette
PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 2:08 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:09 pm
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Location: Eastern Nebraska
Spartazoo wrote:
Here is a great article I share with parents about buying the right shotgun. Parents buying semi-auto shotguns has very little to do with "parents read a lot of gun magazines". It has everything to do with making a choice that's right for the youth and not the stodgy old trap elitist that may be standing next to them.

http://www.fieldandstream.com/articles/ ... -christmas

Nice article. Go to the bottom of the page. What is his top pick: Browning BT-99.
I am not sure he is even talking about trap. He includes a discussion about doling out one shell at a time. That might indeed be necessary for a kid just learning to shoot. But, that is not trap. That is a kid learning to shoot, without other shooters, with a parent standing behind him. A kid that cannot grasp "one shell in the gun, period" is not a kid that is ready to go to a trap range with 4 other shooters and no parent behind him.

Try to grasp: Registered ATA trap shoots will have stodgy old elitists at them, possibly a lot of them. There are some simple basic rules about interfering with other shooters. It is not difficult for any shooter to comply with them. The coach and the parent that bought the auto needs to work with the kid to accomplish this. And if they do, I will be happy to shoot with them and have, many times.


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 Post subject: Re: Semi Auto Ettiquette
PostPosted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 10:34 am 
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The BT99 is the best option for beginners, IF they only want to shoot one discipline. But starting out, many (if not most) parents chose as semi for the following reasons: it's cheaper than a new BT99, and used ones that don't have to be modified are hard to find. Most shoot more than one discipline which means that a second shell is needed. In the 9 disciplines available to the youth only two are single shots. Finally, many want a gun the kids can hunt with. I know we looked for two years before we found a decent used BT that we could adjust. Decent stock guys are not to be found within 200 miles of us.

In SCTP competition, the full team squad shoots together. So their empties are bothering nobody but their own team. And it's just something they live with. Some semis drop them in front of the line but not all.

Only in open ATA does it become an issue. Since the ATA has partnered with SCTP to grow their numbers (and take in a bunch of dues), one thing they could do is to offer better education on this issue. Maybe reach out and give away some shell catchers or rubber bands?

If it bothered me, and I saw I was going to have to shoot with an autoloader, I'd have a group of rubber bands in my bag, ready to go. Before we started, I'd approach the shooter, and gently educate them about how their hulls could unwittingly disturb another shooter. And then show how a simple rubber band could improve relationships. BTW, I've never seen a rubber band on a trap line. Lots of talk about it, but I've never witnessed.

Now in the 7 years I've been coaching I've only once seen something like the above happen. I've seen a bunch of complaining and bad-mouthing "these darn kids" or "these newbies". I did see one kind, older gentlemen go to his truck and get a brand new shell catcher and gave it to a young man who had never seen such a contraption. The old guy wasn't even shooting, but he knew that there was a mean old guy who would make the kids' life miserable on his squad. The old guy and young shooter were best pals going forward. And when that young man won the club ATA shoot outright two years later that old guy was as proud as anybody.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi Auto Ettiquette
PostPosted: Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:17 pm 
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pintailwizard wrote:

Now in the 7 years I've been coaching I've only once seen something like the above happen. I've seen a bunch of complaining and bad-mouthing "these darn kids" or "these newbies". I did see one kind, older gentlemen go to his truck and get a brand new shell catcher and gave it to a young man who had never seen such a contraption. The old guy wasn't even shooting, but he knew that there was a mean old guy who would make the kids' life miserable on his squad. The old guy and young shooter were best pals going forward. And when that young man won the club ATA shoot outright two years later that old guy was as proud as anybody.


That's the good stuff that clay target sports, and life in general, can certainly use a lot more of. Thanks for sharing a nice story and a good example for the rest of us to follow.

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 Post subject: Re: Semi Auto Ettiquette
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:10 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri May 06, 2016 4:36 am
Posts: 21
albatros wrote:
Yes, we are all happy to see new young shooters. But, NO, we do not have to be patient. A rubber band costs about a penny. Get one, use one. It ain't that complicated.
...


A rubber band doesn't always work.
My son was shooting an A400 Xcel and we tried the rubber band.
With the Xcel's flat rib even a small rubber band occluded the shooter's view of the beads

Even the best shell catchers have trouble with doubles

Best possible solution? Spend the extra $$ and buy an O/U.
If you're really on a budget, can't afford an O/U, get a pump and teach them to eject shells slowly, and towards the bucket.


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 Post subject: Re: Semi Auto Ettiquette
PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 9:09 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2016 3:46 pm
Posts: 271
Location: Western NY
Hm...gotta say, I am not pleased when I get hit by someones hulls when I'm shooting. I have been hit in the head, shoulders legs, feet. Its very annoying and distracting. I have a catcher for my 11-87. I generally shoot a 101 and catch the shells from that. If I bring my SX3 (before goose season) I leave it on the ground at station 5 and shoot it only there.
A rubber band works pretty darned well. If it doesn't work once and a while it's a lot better than just shooting hulls at the next person in line after every shot.
We have a few folks in our club that are in their 80's and 90's. If you hit them with a hull or keep putting them between their feet they will eventually speak to you about it.
Shoot the semi but make an effort to be courteous..
Related, a lefty shooter with an over and under with extractors will put all of their hulls next to your feet depending upon how they open the gun...




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