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 Post subject: Re: ATA targets: Harder in the past?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:56 pm 
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A good and very informative post............I did not know all that about TRAP shooting and the various targets that can and have been thrown.
Thanks.
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 Post subject: Re: ATA targets: Harder in the past?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 9:46 pm 
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mudpack wrote:
B.L.E. wrote:
As you can see by the wear marks, hole 3 is the one normally used,

Hmmmmm...looks to me like the hole with the wear marks is the fourth hole out from the center hole.

I was a trap boy back in the early sixties. The machines didn't have to worry about supporting a large number of targets; there was only one target on the machine at a time, the target I just placed on the arm for the next shot.
The range paid me in targets and shells. At least that's what it seemed like to my mother.


It actually has two "3" holes. It's hard to see on the photo but there is a number stamped by each hole and they go 1-2-3-3-4-5-6. The hole in the very center can be considered the zero hole and is used to lock the trap in the center position.
I'm not sure if it's a spare "3" hole or if the two "3" holes are slightly different in swing angles. They both look like they are about the same distance from the center hole to me.


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 Post subject: Re: ATA targets: Harder in the past?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:52 pm 
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Oldman,

from the ATA website: "Annually, ATA members participate in 6,000 plus registered tournaments and shoot at more than 55 million targets. With nearly 1000 gun clubs affiliated with the ATA you can find registered shooting just about anywhere"

More than 3 million of those targets are shot at the Grand American, which draws nearly 4,000 competitors.

It has been published, but I can't seem to find the total number of shooters who register targets annually.

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 Post subject: Re: ATA targets: Harder in the past?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 8:02 am 
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So how about the figures for skeet, sporting clays, 5 stand, and international ?


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 Post subject: Re: ATA targets: Harder in the past?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:19 am 
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NSSA and NSCA both have membership numbers and registered target numbers. No organized 5 stand and only Olympic org. offer international targets. I don't think there is any non-registered numbers for any managing organization. Would guess non registered leagues, jackpot and practice shooting would be 10 times the ATA numbers. At least for my club and other Iowa gun clubs would confirm this. I know we sell about 4 pallets of skeet targets each year and over 40 pallets trap shooting. There are so few skeet fields nationwide that there is no way the game gets to 10% of trap. Sporting clays is even more obscure in the fly-over states and this is where most of clay targets are shot. White flyer the manufacture may have real numbers of difference.

There is no data other than field availability, membership and registered target totals. Only common sense and experience in all the games give one a grasp of overall participation. What is popular in your area or what you shoot does not reflect on overall numbers.

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 Post subject: Re: ATA targets: Harder in the past?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:43 am 
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So in the end you are just stating a opinion , nothing that can be backed up by facts .

Back to the original question . In reality I think there would only be 1 way to decide if the old 3 hole targets were harder than what is shot today . Find a club that still has the old hand set , button released traps and are throwing 3 hole targets . Shoot your next 2000 targets on those traps . If your average drops , they are harder . If it goes up they were softer . If it stays the same it makes no difference .
Having shot both the "old" and the "present" targets I feel your average is going to go down .


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 Post subject: Re: ATA targets: Harder in the past?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 3:36 pm 
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B.L.E. wrote:
mudpack wrote:
Hmmmmm...looks to me like the hole with the wear marks is the fourth hole out from the center hole.


It actually has two "3" holes. It's hard to see on the photo but there is a number stamped by each hole and they go 1-2-3-3-4-5-6. The hole in the very center can be considered the zero hole and is used to lock the trap in the center position.
I'm not sure if it's a spare "3" hole or if the two "3" holes are slightly different in swing angles. They both look like they are about the same distance from the center hole to me.

Well, Illbedarned. My magnifying glass tells me you are correct! Please ignore everything I've said on the subject to date. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: ATA targets: Harder in the past?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:12 pm 
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Oldman,
I'm not sure what your point is. Perhaps one of the skeet or sporting shooters knows the figures for those. I'm sure the numbers are available from NSSA and NSCA.

Personally, I don't believe the "old" and "new" targets are different enough to cause any statistically significant difference.

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 Post subject: Re: ATA targets: Harder in the past?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:54 pm 
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maltzahn wrote:
Sporting clays is even more obscure in the fly-over states and this is where most of clay targets are shot
I'm sure saying that to yourself makes you feel better but I bet you don't have the data to back that up.


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 Post subject: Re: ATA targets: Harder in the past?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 12:15 am 
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Tal/IL wrote:
Oldman,
I'm not sure what your point is. Perhaps one of the skeet or sporting shooters knows the figures for those. I'm sure the numbers are available from NSSA and NSCA.

Personally, I don't believe the "old" and "new" targets are different enough to cause any statistically significant difference.


I think trap scores may be getting higher for the same reason that athletes are routinely running the mile is less than four minutes today. The mile didn't get shorter, the athletes have just gotten better.
I have also been to a lot small local trap tournaments were NOBODY shot 100 straight in singles. It's still pretty hard to do.


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 Post subject: Re: ATA targets: Harder in the past?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:11 am 
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Tal/IL wrote:
Oldman,
I'm not sure what your point is. Perhaps one of the skeet or sporting shooters knows the figures for those. I'm sure the numbers are available from NSSA and NSCA.

Personally, I don't believe the "old" and "new" targets are different enough to cause any statistically significant difference.


My point is that if you say "It is still be biggest shooting game available. More participation than skeet, sporting clays, 5 stand, international added together." you should have have some sort of fact to back it up .
As I said , the only way I can think of to decide if there is a difference between old and new targets would be to shoot 2000 of the old targets and see how your average is compared to what you have now .


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 Post subject: Re: ATA targets: Harder in the past?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 6:48 pm 
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Targets have certainly gotten harder for me in the last few years.


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 Post subject: Re: ATA targets: Harder in the past?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:30 pm 
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Okay, my .02 cents worth from NW Iowa. I have to drive 2 hours in one of three directions to shoot sporting clays at a commercial operation; or a bit over an hour to a club that does 3-4 open shoots a year. In that same area I am aware of 2 skeet ranges and over 20 trap clubs (some honestly not that active). I have been all over the web and asked at every gun store and charity shoot I can make it to. I'm sure there are even more trap clubs I haven't found, as when I got out to the fringes I didn't look too hard. There are probably 6-7 trap clubs under an hour and 1 skeet club.

The club I go to on Sundays is not my closest; they are just the one that does stuff on the weekends when I'm off. The others do their thing on weeknights when I'm at work. They have a school Trap team, quite a few league trap shooters on those nights. On Sunday it's 4 to 8 of us shooting skeet and 1 to 4 on the trap line. With some crossover obviously.

Maltzahn: Are you shooting at High Lakes? That is a nice looking club from what I can see on the web. I have a buddy who recently moved to Creston, maybe I should visit.

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 Post subject: Re: ATA targets: Harder in the past?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:51 am 
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BakerBB.....We have been shooting all winter on nice days. Have a skeet league going now and the trap leagues all spring, summer and fall.

I'm not interested in an effort to justify skeet and clays. I shoot both on occasion for fun. I have seen the member numbers and target recording of both the NSSA and NSCA and don't give a.... what the numbers are. Just know both games have much smaller numbers when compared to American trap and when added together still trivia. Don't know why the skeet and clay shooters get ruffled about the truth. All clay target shooting is enjoyed. Many shooters cross over to other disciplines while having a favorite.

What makes a favorite shooting discipline is your personality and interests. Skeet and trap shooters are perfectionists with consistent target presentation available. Clay and 5 stand shooters like challenging target presentations. Their goals are relation to a hunting interest. Target loss scoring is expected and level playing field less important.

Have personally shot all the games competitively and still enjoy all, but trap is my game of choice. It becomes your life if you let it. It can be your only your friends and social groups. Taking all spare money and time. Consumes all your volunteerism. The old joke, "have spent one farm trapshooting and working on the second, is true in my case.

Maltz

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 Post subject: Re: ATA targets: Harder in the past?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:13 am 
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" Don't know why the skeet and clay shooters get ruffled about the truth."
I don't think they get ruffled , they just get tired of hearing opinion presented as fact .
On to the other part of the OP's question . When was the last you attended a shoot where HOA won a new car ? How about a "local" shoot where class winners were given a new gun (Rem.870 or better) ? And we are not talking about the National's or Grand American .


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 Post subject: Re: ATA targets: Harder in the past?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:10 pm 
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Oldman,

You seem to dispute the assertion that trapshooting has the greatest participation of the competitive shotgun sports. It has long been generally accepted that it does by all the topical references I am familiar with. It has been frequently published as fact in the shooting press over the years, and certainly seems consistent with my experience and the observations of folks I know. If you have some evidence that indicates there has been a change, I would find it very interesting.

As for the effect on scores of a minor change in target angles over 2,000 targets, consistency is more a factor than the actual setting. If the change is applied consistently, there may be a noticeable short term effect over the first several hundred targets. But, shooters will adapt to the new standard quickly - much the same as shooters adapt to shooting at a new club environment - and i would not expect any significant effect over time.

As for your statement that, "we are not talking about the Nationals or Grand American", as the original context of this thread was how the current standards for target setting has affected ATA participation, I would say that we are in fact talking about them.

That pretty much exhausts my interest in this thread.

However, I must admit I am now curious about the actual numbers for skeet and sporting. If anyone can point me to a source at NSSA & NSCA, I would appreciate it.

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 Post subject: Re: ATA targets: Harder in the past?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:27 pm 
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"However, I must admit I am now curious about the actual numbers for skeet and sporting. If anyone can point me to a source at NSSA & NSCA, I would appreciate it."
Questioning what is commonly accepted as fact , who would have thought ?
And I thought part of the question was if the money/prizes had gone away from what it was before the targets were made "softer" .


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 Post subject: Re: ATA targets: Harder in the past?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 7:51 pm 
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Originally, my interest was whether targets in trap were made easier, and if so WHEN? Apparently they were, if only slightly. I want to thank you guys for the history and knowledge you shared.

I'm not really a perfectionist, but I do like the consistency in trap. If I tell another shooter that I shot a 96 he knows what that means (good day for me!). If I tell someone I shot a 40 of 50 at sporting clays I'm the only one that knows how easy that course must have been.

I tried to find ATA registered member numbers and failed, but I found this from the NSSA AND NSCA on their web pages:

NSCA has over 22,000 members in all 50 US states and 10 foreign countries

With approximately 15,000 members and 700 affiliated member clubs, it is the largest organization in the world dedicated solely to the sport of skeet shooting.

bry


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 Post subject: Re: ATA targets: Harder in the past?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:08 pm 
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Oldman1949 wrote:
On to the other part of the OP's question . When was the last you attended a shoot where HOA won a new car ? How about a "local" shoot where class winners were given a new gun (Rem.870 or better) ? And we are not talking about the National's or Grand American .


I think winning next weekend's monthly trap shoot, plus $5 bucks, will get me a cup of coffee in a restaurant if I don't tip the waitress. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: ATA targets: Harder in the past?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 8:27 am 
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Clubs today keep target prices down to attract more shooters. Resulting in less award quality and money return. A trend for years. There is still money in the sport of trap shooting, but its your wager/option money. Many of us like to play or gamble, whatever your term. From more luck than skill, Lewis purses. To bigger gambles of skill like Handicap purses ties slit. Then there is all skill purses like special events / Calcutta's - high gun.

Without a sponsor or your gamble there will be little money or merchandise in trapshooting. Club target prices will be related more to paid help compared to volunteer help. Those with less skill and frugal play targets only. Those that want recognition if shooting well will pay full target price. Those that like to wager play full price + options. That can be expensive and triple the target cost. Its not uncommon to pay 200 to 300 dollars a day for targets and options and makes those week long trap shoots investment grade. :roll:

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