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 Post subject: Beretta trademark on Daly SXS????
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:57 am 
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Has anyone seen the markings AB inside an oval marked on their older Beretta's? this mark would on the barrels and receiver. the reason I am asking is that I have a Charles Daly that everyone is telling me it is made by Beretta. I have seen three Daly's in the last month or two that are said to be made by Beretta and all three including mine has an AB inside an oval stamped on the barrels. If anyone can give me a positive identification of this stamp it would be greatly appreciated.

thanks max


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 Post subject: re: Beretta trademark on Daly SXS????
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:13 pm 
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:idea: :arrow: Could the "AB" be the year of manufacture code :?:

1976?

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 Post subject: re: Beretta trademark on Daly SXS????
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 2:32 pm 
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Beretta apparently did make some guns for Daly in the 1970's, but so did Breda, Bernardelli, and others, so there are plenty of opportunities for confusion.

Beretta's trademark is PB (Pietro Beretta) in an oval, not AB.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_made_the_ ... rial_97496

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 Post subject: re: Beretta trademark on Daly SXS????
PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:24 pm 
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I totally agree with the PB in oval, bernadelli has a VB in an oval. I have checked the "gunmarks" book and I have not found any Ovals with an AB in them.. I knew the AB without anything around it was an Italian date 1976 so I was sure the AB on my gun wasn't a date.

If any one can identify the AB within an oval, please let me know. there is at least three of us that have this same gun who are in the dark.

thanks for the great reply's

max


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 Post subject: re: Beretta trademark on Daly SXS????
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 3:12 pm 
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Max, I have two Vincenzo Bernardelli SXSs with VB in a TRIANGLE.

A Pietro Bernardelli with just his name, and Armi Bernardelli on it. (No enclosure) (And I think lots of Italian manufactures used the word Armi, as a prefix at one time or another)

I bought my 20 gage SXS, XXIV, (1968), Charles Daly Empire grade, from a very astute, (if I had his collection, ONLY, I would be a multi millionaire!), collector. I am quite sure that he said it was made by Beretta, and he was selling because he was upgrading his collection. (It has the AB in an oval)

I once had a dealer, (using the blue book), who told me that my gun would be worth only $400 if 99 percent! :roll: :roll: He was having trouble finding it in the the blue book, and I have since figured out that it, this particular gun, is just not in there.

So like you, I am still trying to figure it out. BUT, I am coming to the conclusion that the AB in the oval comes from the time before Pietro Beretta became the main man in the firm. And stands simply for "Armi Beretta".

I know that I have seen just that on some old Beretta hang tags and other paperwork as well as on old boxes.

But I also just checked my old Beretta, single, MonteCarlo Trap model and it doesn't have any oval. And I can't really tell the date, it is either XI, (1955 with a slightly botched stamping), or XXI, (1965), but it seems much older than the SXS, both in shape and design wise. ???? It is one of those under lever guns, designed like the fold up ones. (In reality, it is a pretty good trap gun, for it's day.)

BTW, the oval on my SXS is shaped different than the new PB oval. More elongated, for whatever that means.

Clyde


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 Post subject: re: Beretta trademark on Daly SXS????
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:17 pm 
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Clyde, the trap gun you are describing must be a Beretta TR-1 Trap or TR-2 Trap. The Blue Book says they were introduced in 1968, but you can't always go by that - I have seen several wrong dates in the BB. If you ever want to sell that, let me know.

For more info on the action design, see http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtop ... 702#831702

My 20 gauge Beretta break-open folding gun was made in 1958, and it is marked Pietro Beretta, but it has no initials or oval. The name of "Pietro" has been a part of the company's official name since 1832.

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 Post subject: Re: re: Beretta trademark on Daly SXS????
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:24 pm 
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Seamus O'Caiside wrote:
Clyde, the trap gun you are describing must be a Beretta TR-1 Trap or TR-2 Trap. The Blue Book says they were introduced in 1968, but you can't always go by that - I have seen several wrong dates in the BB. If you ever want to sell that, let me know.

For more info on the action design, see http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtop ... 702#831702

My 20 gauge Beretta break-open folding gun was made in 1958, and it is marked Pietro Beretta, but it has no initials or oval. The name of "Pietro" has been a part of the company's official name since 1832.


OK, guess I was wrong about Pietro, he was older than I had thought! :roll:

Seamus, this one only says, Monte Carlo Trap Special on it. Apparently imported by Eagle Arms NYNY, those three sets of letters stamped on it in the SHAPE of a triangle. (Not inside a triangle) Opening lever in front of the trigger guard, tang safety. No where on it, does it say "Beretta", let alone "Pietro".

The date code is either XXV or XV, (I made a typo on the other post, 1959 or 1969), the first X looks very light and only about half of it shows at all. Wasn't sure if it was a "double strike" in the stamping or not. (And it certainly looks to be an older gun then the two CDs. But maybe just because the design is older.)

And you are right, they are very light guns. I have had two, the grandson has the first one. After I gave that one to him, years ago, I found this one at a gun show and couldn't pass it up. These guns fit both of us good right from the get-go, which is more than I can say for most! (But most trap guns come much closer than any field gun!)

I certainly wouldn't want to use this light sucker for Annies!

BTW, Skeeter, I also have a CD in 12 gage, XXII, (1967), full and full. It too has the AB in an oval, but the oval is even more elongated on this one. I first saw it in a gun shop, with too high a price on it, for me, and was also told at that time, that it was Beretta made. A year or two later, I picked it up from another gun shop, with a much lower price on it, and made a trade. Both have single, non selective, inertia triggers. Really good guns. I love to use the 12 on the trap field, for fun! Really love to take it to some of the SXS guns only shoots. It really eats the others up on the trap field!

Clyde


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 Post subject: re: Beretta trademark on Daly SXS????
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:05 pm 
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Quote:
Seamus, this one only says, Monte Carlo Trap Special on it. Apparently imported by Eagle Arms NYNY, those three sets of letters stamped on it in the SHAPE of a triangle. (Not inside a triangle) Opening lever in front of the trigger guard, tang safety. No where on it, does it say "Beretta", let alone "Pietro".


I can't figure out what "three sets of letters" you mean.

If the gun does not say Beretta nor have the Beretta logo on it, why do you think it is a Beretta? Other companies have made guns to the same basic design. In all the pictures I have seen of the Beretta TR-1 and TR-2, they had the safety in the form of a button in the front of the trigger guard, not a tang safety, although some other makers of that type did use a tang safety.

After Beretta took the importation rights away from Galef and gave them to Garcia (sometime in the late 1960's, before 1968) Galef distributed a line of guns made by other makers that were deliberately intended to resemble the Beretta guns Galef had previously imported. The Galef line included a Companion folding field gun and a Monte Carlo Trap model made by Manifattura Armi Valley Inzino (M.A.V.I.) of Gardone, Val Trompia, and those guns did have a tang safety. The Galef Monte Carlo Trap Special was reviewed in The Oct. 1976 issue of American Rifleman. See http://shop.vendio.com/ggardenour/item/ ... 1200310199

I don't understand why your gun is marked as being imported by Eagle Arms rather than by Galef, but I feel sure it must be the one made by M.A.V.I., not by Beretta.

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 Post subject: re: Beretta trademark on Daly SXS????
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 5:23 pm 
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Seamus, you are right again! Now, don't let that become a habit! :lol: :lol:

The three sets of letters are Eagle, one side of the triangle, Arms, the second side, and NYNY being the third side.

No where does it say Galef! But I do believe I saw M.A.V.I. on it, (I have already put it away for the evening.) Got to go open the range. Annies and skeet tonight.

I would guess the first one, the grandsons to be the same, because I am sure it had the tang safety as well.

Clyde


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 Post subject: re: Beretta trademark on Daly SXS????
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:33 pm 
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I love the exchange of information you guys are putting out there.

However, I still am looking for the owner of "AB" in an oval.???

Clyde, there are two other guy that have contacted me on gunbroker.com that also have these Italian Daly's. with the same markings and no one knows who the manufacture is.

There has to be someone who can put a name with the markings. ANYONE!!!!!!!!

max


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 Post subject: re: Beretta trademark on Daly SXS????
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 12:35 pm 
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:arrow: Abercrombie & Fitch - Distributors and importers formerly based in New York City. In 1978 purchased by Houston based sporting goods chain of Oshman's, with A. & F. stores to be located in Beverly Hills, California and Dallas, Texas.
http://armscollectors.com/sn/gun_marks_lookup.php

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 Post subject: re: Beretta trademark on Daly SXS????
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:06 pm 
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Is This It? :?
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http://www.gunsinternational.com/detail.cfm?id=100025672&string=cid=476

Title: CHARLES DALY PRUSSIAN DIAMOND PAIR 4&8 BORE SXS
Guns International #: 100025672
Lister Inventory Number: SBFG8373
Description:
THESE ARE MUSEUM QUALITY FIREARMS 4 BORE WITH DEEP CUT SCROLL AND GAME SCENES WITH GOLD INLAID BIRDS AND DOGS 37" KRUPP STEEL BARRELS DOUBLE TRIGGER SPLINTER PISTOL GRIP UNDERLEVER OPENING 22LBS 10 OZ.THE 8 BORE IS DEEP CUT SCROLL AND GAME SCENE 34" KRUPP STEEL BARRELS DOUBLE TRIGGER SPLINTER FOREARM PISTOL GRIP 16LBS 2 OZ BOTH AREDIAMOND QUALITY .BOTH ARE UNTOUCHED ORIGINAL AND NEAR MINT GUNS
Price: $325,000.00 :shock:
Wishful Thinking :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: re: Beretta trademark on Daly SXS????
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:21 pm 
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RWH24 wrote:
Is This It? :?
Image

http://www.gunsinternational.com/detail.cfm?id=100025672&string=cid=476

Title: CHARLES DALY PRUSSIAN DIAMOND PAIR 4&8 BORE SXS
Guns International #: 100025672
Lister Inventory Number: SBFG8373
Description:
THESE ARE MUSEUM QUALITY FIREARMS 4 BORE WITH DEEP CUT SCROLL AND GAME SCENES WITH GOLD INLAID BIRDS AND DOGS 37" KRUPP STEEL BARRELS DOUBLE TRIGGER SPLINTER <a href="http://www.pistolworld.com">pistol</a> GRIP UNDERLEVER OPENING 22LBS 10 OZ.THE 8 BORE IS DEEP CUT SCROLL AND GAME SCENE 34" KRUPP STEEL BARRELS DOUBLE TRIGGER SPLINTER FOREARM <a href="http://www.pistolworld.com">pistol</a> GRIP 16LBS 2 OZ BOTH AREDIAMOND QUALITY .BOTH ARE UNTOUCHED ORIGINAL AND NEAR MINT GUNS
Price: $325,000.00 :shock:
Wishful Thinking :roll:


Hell, NO! But I wish they were!

Don't think it is Abercrombie and Fitch, either, as it is "AB", not "Ab"!

So we are still up in the air. Thanks for the try!

Clyde


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 Post subject: re: Beretta trademark on Daly SXS????
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:06 pm 
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http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?p=1045320

Found this but you have been there :roll:

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Last edited by RWH24 on Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: re: Beretta trademark on Daly SXS????
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:16 pm 
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Yep, been there, thanks! That guy was just as sure his was Beretta made as well. Although mine have no Beretta, direct, markings, nothing I have found points to any other company, at least as yet.

But I was wrong on my Monte Carlo Trap Special, as Seamus pointed out. Who knows?

Those Italians traded lots of work as well. Hard to figure out, who, what, when, etc.

Clyde


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 Post subject: re: Beretta trademark on Daly SXS????
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:20 pm 
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http://www.wisnersinc.com/additional_info/Charles_Daly_serialnumbers.htm

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=2922

http://oldguns.net/q&a12_99.htm

# 2562 - Charles Daly Question
12/28/99
Allen


Who was Charles Daly? I believe he, or his father, owned a sporting goods store in NYC, dealing in quality shotguns and golf clubs. This would have been about 1900...yet I think a more recent Charles Daly was involved with custom shotguns. Any help or explanations will be appreciated. Thanks

Answer:
Allen- As you know, we are located in Salt Lake City, where the Moromon church has assembled the finest geneaology reference materials in the world. However, being lazy, I merely consulted Charles Carder's exceptionally helpful and well researched "Side By Sides of the World." If it is about older shotguns, I can usually find it in there. His entry for Charles Daly reads: DALY, CHARLES: Schoverling and Daly were importers and distributors located in New York City 1865 to 1939. About 1873, they reorganized and became Schoverling, Daly and Gales. They imported high grade side by sides in 1875 under the trade name of CHARLES DALY. That trade name was chosen because it had an appealing sound that they thought would influence the public to buy their guns. In 1919, Henry Modell bought out the company and maintained control until he sold out to the Walzers' family in the late 1920's. Eventually Sloan's Sporting Goods bought the company and established a branch known as the CHARLES DALY & CO., DIV. The primary source of early CHARLES DALY shotguns were from European gun makers. Some of the many different manufacturers of the DALY shotguns were Lefever Arms Co. of New York, U.S.A., Tolley of England, Newmann of Belgium, and Prussian gun makers, Schiller and Charles Lindner. Later guns came from Heym and Sauer of Germany, Beretta and Bernardelli of Italy, Garbi of Spain, and Miroku of Japan. The Japanese shotguns were imported from 1963 to 1973. Most collectors desire the Prussian DALY shotguns, which were exceptionally fine quality. Early CHARLES DALY shotguns are considered classic among shooters and collectors. CHARLES DALY shotguns include all traditional options. The trade name, CHARLES DALY, was purchased in 1976 by Outdoor Sports of Dayton, Ohio and that same year, Sloan's Sporting Goods Co., Inc. of Ridgefield, CT. advertised CHARLES DALY shotguns manufactured by Vincenzo Bernardelli. Hope this helps. John Spangler

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 Post subject: re: Beretta trademark on Daly SXS????
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:39 pm 
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Thanks, but these are definitely not Westley Richards, or Japanese Mirokus.

They are definitely Italian made. I still think Beretta, as I was told when I bought both of mine, but now can't prove.

Clyde


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 Post subject: re: Beretta trademark on Daly SXS????
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 4:05 pm 
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Some of the many different manufacturers of the DALY shotguns were Lefever Arms Co. of New York, U.S.A., Tolley of England, Newmann of Belgium, and Prussian gun makers, Schiller and Charles Lindner. Later guns came from Heym and Sauer of Germany, Beretta and Bernardelli of Italy,

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