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 Post subject: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 10:19 pm 
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Location: Where the ducks don't come no more
There I said it. And here is why:

I started shooting hevi-shot my 2nd year of high-school. Would have been late in year 1998. I'd used T shot in steel for geese for a few years, and just wasn't impressed. A friend of my fathers told us about hevi-shot, and though we balked at the price ($12 a box if I remember right... oh for those days again) we bought some #6s (which seemed even more crazy) and loaded two more T steel behind it.

I still remember standing on a rock in the middle of the James River and being amazed at how the head whipped back on that goose just like a turkey hit at close range would. The goose plumtted out of the bright December sky and smacked the water like a cinderblock dropped off a high rise scaffold. I was hooked.

When Remington started loading it, and it was easier to get, I was thrilled. I shot 2 3/4" #6s at everything from ducks, to geese, swans and even shot a pig with it while turkey hunting in SC. Loading it as my first shot, and backing it up with Win Supreme 3" #3s.

When Remington's deal with Environmetal expired in late 2005/early 2006, I didn't skip a beat. Having just graduated college, and picking up a full time job at a gun shop I did an internship at in college (what a class huh) I got wholesale prices on EVERYTHING that was new. I miss those days too. So I boned up and bought three cases of the stuff. Took a case to Arkansas, and still just used it as my first shell. But the results were just not the same, and I noticed that for some reason I was having to shoot a few birds a second time after hitting them with Hevi-shot. And I just had never had to do that before... EVER. Little did I know then....

But of course I know why I experienced a difference. And the more people I talk to that have been shooting hevi-shot for a few years, the more and more the results are the same. "Its just not the same now... I wonder what changed?"

I know now of course what they did...and I know that I am not the only one who is flat out P.O'd about Environmetal developing a new "less dense" form of Hevi-shot and selling it under the same name, save the "duck" suffix.

I am sitting on nearly $400 of this hevi-shot duck crap, that is only slightly better than hevi-steel with regards to "heaviness" yet is over twice the price per shell. What is the real burn point for me, is that even I as a long time user and DEALER of hevi-shot and their products, had to find this out from other hunters (in fact it was on the forum here at SGW). Moreover, environmetal is, at least from my point of view and in my opinion, trying to hide this fact like its a matter of national freakin security. To me, it is sneaky, deceitful to the consumer (and the dealer) and if flat out a bad business practice.

Infact, I'm done with it. There are better choices that hit harder anyway. Sure the price maybe a little bit more, but at least Remington will not pull a bait and switch on me.

Am I the only one here who thinks Environmetal ought to be a little bit more responsible and disclose a bit more information to the consumer before charging the buyer for a filet and giving them a strip steak instead?




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 Post subject: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:18 pm 
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100% agreement. They built a reputation based on 12 g/cc performance, then suddenly dropped the density down 20% to save money on raw materials, but didn't tell anyone. I even bought a box of the #4 HS "Duck" @ $25 for ten rounds. :x They fooled me too. I cut one open to inspect the pellets, and discovered that, strangely, the 1 3/8 oz shot cup had more volume than a 1 1/8 oz steel cup. :? I'm no math wizard, but I smelled "something rotten in Denmark" as they say. (1.5 ounces of 12 g/cc HS should fit easily into a 1 ounce steel wad.) Then I recalled reading that Environmetal had asked for and been granted nontoxic approval for a variety of new tungsten alloy shot ranging between 8.5 g/cc and 13.5 g/cc. Ah-ha. "What the heck did I just pay $2.50/shell for?", I asked myself.

Well, I know now. In the back of the Christmas issue of the Macks Prairie Wings catalog there is an advertisement for a new Environmetal offering called Hevi-Shot Classic Doubles. This time they've come clean about the density, "26% denser than steel but soft like lead," says the ad. Three lines above that admission, they proclaim this selling point about the new shot: "Get the same superior performance as Hevi-Shot Duck!"

So, I whip out my calculator. 7.86 g/cc x 126% = 9.9 g/cc. A lot of companies that make denser shot set steel's density at 7.8 g/cc for comparative purposes, so it's even possible the HS CD shot is only 9.8 g/cc and by inference, so is the HS Duck. That compares with a listed value of 9.4 g/cc for Hevi-Steel which costs the same per box, only the box has 25 rounds in it instead of 10. What a rip-off that HS Duck is! :evil:


-Dave

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 Post subject: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 6:51 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:04 pm
Posts: 459
Location: montana
Its too bad they decieved you, that without doing proper testing for good kills with that expensive of stuff.. What they and you have left out of the equation is velocity.. Becouse You were decived its certainly not your fault.. When the proper velocity and payload are balanced they should be able to make any product, (heavier and tougher than lead,) into a great load.. AS velocity increases leads are easier to calculate so if they get thier crap together, we will definitly see better results possible.. Ive shot black powder for more years than i wish to count, and its low velocity and the only availability of bismuth bb thru the past made geese hunting a sad affair for me.. But bp loading has given me some tools to determine how to calculate density/shot size/pennetration/velocity comaprisons.. Take phone books and tape them to a large steel plate that is solid.. shoot the books and count the pages, (micrometer is easier) of average pennetration of hits, in the phone book with the sizes of shot available.. .. Once youv found the correct pennetration, for your needs, its easy to check new loads and new products preformance compared to old loads in an hour or so.. .. this coupled with a couple patterns at 40 and 50 yards will give you definite scientific data to campare new and upcoming loads, without spending alot of time on the river just to see.. Im not dissagreeing with you in any way, but only believe we are moving forward with lightning speed, and some corrections are inevitable.. many shooters want to hunt waterfoul with thier 2000-30,000 dollar guns, and they want softer shot, and we will have to deal with that for awhile.. Money talks, and they definitly have it.. If you want to shoot big loads, maybe you can go to larger shot, that is if your used to using 2s, b may be to your advantage at this time.... the ultimate answer will be reloading with proper testing of loads. The downside of that is realoading takes time and doesnt save one much, if any money.. Dave


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 Post subject: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:48 pm 
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I agree, absolutely. What Environmetal did was dishonest, and it has certainly put a blemish on the Hevi-Shot label. Seems like some hunters still don't realize the huge difference, though. The red flag for me was the "duck loads" were marked "heavier than steel" while the goose loads were marked "heavier than lead".

All of the non-toxic ammo should have shot Density and Hardness rating on the box in addition to Velocity, Payload Wt., and Shell Length. Just like food requires nutrition labels. That would end the confusion.

Jeremiah

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 Post subject: Re: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:40 pm 
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FullandFuller wrote:

All of the non-toxic ammo should have shot Density and Hardness rating on the box in addition to Velocity, Payload Wt., and Shell Length. Just like food requires nutrition labels. That would end the confusion.

Jeremiah


Absolutely it should. Lord knows it wouldn't put them out of house and home to change the package up a little bit. They are holding enough of my money right now anyway... ought to spread it around a bit.

I never caught the heavier than steel... heavier than lead thing until after the fact. At that point I sort of said... "well geeee thanks for making that one clear fellas". Or something along those lines that would qualify as a $400 statement. :roll:


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 Post subject: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 3:58 pm 
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Glad all I have is old stock. There is still some of the old stuff around. I picked up 3 cases (75boxes) of the Rem. branded hevi in 2 3/4" 20 ga 7 1/2 shot for just over $13.00 a box. Also got 20 lbs of old stock bulk 7 1/2. Should have bought twice as much of both as I will not be shooting any of the new lighter stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:58 pm 
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A5Mag12 wrote:
Glad all I have is old stock. There is still some of the old stuff around. I picked up 3 cases (75boxes) of the Rem. branded hevi in 2 3/4" 20 ga 7 1/2 shot for just over $13.00 a box. Also got 20 lbs of old stock bulk 7 1/2. Should have bought twice as much of both as I will not be shooting any of the new lighter stuff.


Wal-Mart did me the favor of putting all the remington stuff on clearance when they discontinuted it. I bought all they had in 2 3/4 and 3" and drove to 3 others looking for more and struck out. Ended up with about 8 boxes something like three boxes of 2 3/4" #6 duck, two boxes of 3" #6 duck and three boxes of 3" #4 turkey. I have two of the 2 3/4" duck and two of the 3" #4 turkey left. But I'm goose hunting in the morning on a hot field, so I suspect that there will be a few less 3" #4s. I'd acctually stopped shooting the Remington stuff when I got the Evironmetal stuff. I don't know why exactly?


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 Post subject: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:41 am 
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I shoot a 2 3/4" gun and bought Hevi-Shot Duck (#6) this year as I just wasn't happy with steel. Yes, I thought I was getting the original 12 g/cc hevi-shot, not the watered down version, but nonetheless found that the loads performed much better than steel. While I do feel a little "snookered" by Environmetal, I will probably continue using H-S Duck since it's way cheaper than Kent TM, Rem HD or Win XR, and Hevi-Steel only comes in 3" and 3 1/2". What I oughta do is get myself a MEC and roll my own with the real McCoy hevi-shot.


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 Post subject: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:10 pm 
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When I called them this is what I got:

Hevishot Duck loads are formulated with lighter loads, higher speeds, and pellets that are 25% denser than steel to maximize patterns and knockdown power on ducks over decoys or ducks in flooded timbers. Shoot a shot size or two smaller than you would for steel, to really push up your pellet count. These shotshells have 40% more energy than high speed steel shotshells. And Hevishot Goose loads are formulated with heavier loads and ultra-dense pellets (10% denser than lead). These shotshells have no peer in the industry for tight patterns and total penetration for long pass shots on heavy game. These goose loads are the original Heavier Than Lead shotshells, and have more than twice the energy of high speed steel shotshells.[/i]


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 Post subject: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:08 pm 
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I think I posted the densities up of all the hevi shot loads a couple months ago. At the time there were a few people that didnt believe me. Oh well now we are informed. Most guys will keep getting the Hevi Duck though thinking it's the 12g/cc stuff. For me if I get anything it will be Hevi Steel. Although I've shot one box of it and could not tell a bit of difference from my regular 3.5" steel loads.


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 Post subject: Re: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:22 am 
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[quote="Marcstar"]I think I posted the densities up of all the hevi shot loads a couple months ago. At the time there were a few people that didnt believe me. Oh well now we are informed. Most guys will keep getting the Hevi Duck though thinking it's the 12g/cc stuff. For me if I get anything it will be Hevi Steel. Although I've shot one box of it and could not tell a bit of difference from my regular 3.5" steel loads.[/quote]

I'm still going to use the hevishot duck for my ducks and hevishot goose for geese. Regardless of anything else, I know that when I use it I come home happy :lol:

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 Post subject: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:31 pm 
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Regarding Hevi-shot, I was in my local sporting store and found the hevi-shot duck and the hevi-shot 13 Turkey. Is there any real differences between the two? Is the only difference the weight of the load?


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 Post subject: Re: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:42 pm 
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magnum12 wrote:
Regarding Hevi-shot, I was in my local sporting store and found the hevi-shot duck and the hevi-shot 13 Turkey. Is there any real differences between the two? Is the only difference the weight of the load?


The density of the shot is the difference, and yes likely the total weight of the shot (charge) is probably different too.

Hevi-13 is acctually more dense than hevi shot is/was. Hevi-shot duck is less dense.

Thats the gripe I have with Environmetal, they have changed the make-up and density of what was known as "hevi-shot" for over ten years, and split it into four separate densities. One they dropped the hevi-shot name from (hevi-steel) but the other three (duck, goose and classic doubles) still have Hevi-Shot as their adjective. Its just misleading as heck.


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 Post subject: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:50 pm 
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So really if one what's to buy hevi-shot, hevi-shot 13 would be the best choice as it is the closet to the original.


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 Post subject: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:04 pm 
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The density of the hevishot I buy for reloading is 12 compared to 11.3 for lead and 7.8 for steel.


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 Post subject: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:11 pm 
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Environmetal's hevi-shot goose is 12 g/cc which is the original density. The hevi-13 is even denser at 13 g/cc. I don't know if you will find either of those types in a 1-1/4 payload.

It's the hevi-shot duck that is the issue, as it contains pellets less dense than the original without that information clearly displayed. Also, classic doubles touts the same density as hevi-shot duck.

Jeremiah

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 Post subject: Re: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:20 pm 
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magnum12 wrote:
So really if one what's to buy hevi-shot, hevi-shot 13 would be the best choice as it is the closet to the original.


Not necessarily. As F&F pointed out...hevi-shot "goose" is acctually the same shot as what was known as "hevi-shot". WHich is 12 g/cc. So the short answer to your question is hevi-shot goose. The longer answer is that and/or Remington Wingmaster, which is basically the same density, in a high quality hull that is perfectly round. But it is a bit more.

The other RIGHT answer, is that you have to pattern your gun and see what your particular firearm shoots the best. I'd rather have a good pattern of steel than a rotten and inconsistant pattern of hevi-shot. All about how it performs for what you want it to do for you.


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 Post subject: Re: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:37 pm 
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[quote="cutEM05"][quote="magnum12"]So really if one what's to buy hevi-shot, hevi-shot 13 would be the best choice as it is the closet to the original.[/quote]

Not necessarily. As F&F pointed out...hevi-shot "goose" is acctually the same shot as what was known as "hevi-shot". WHich is 12 g/cc. So the short answer to your question is hevi-shot goose. The longer answer is that and/or Remington Wingmaster, which is basically the same density, in a high quality hull that is perfectly round. But it is a bit more.

The other RIGHT answer, is that you have to pattern your gun and see what your particular firearm shoots the best. I'd rather have a good pattern of steel than a rotten and inconsistant pattern of hevi-shot. All about how it performs for what you want it to do for you.[/quote]

well when I talked to them I was told that the goose loads are the original hevi-shot. Hevi-steel is the [u]low[/u] cost
alternative. Than Hevi-duck comes in right below lead, Goose is above lead and Hevi-13 the turkey load is heavier than the original. It's also in their brochure, call them to get one. Seems like you don't like the folks at Hevi-Shot cutEM05. They seem pretty nice to me and my dog likes 'em too! :D


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 Post subject: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:38 pm 
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I have an idea. Shoot Remington HD. No different classes or density's(that I know of?). And I believe it's cheaper if I remember right.

Am I missing something here? :?


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 Post subject: Re: re: Hevi-shot sucks
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:59 pm 
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[quote="NoDak_Dude"]I have an idea. Shoot Remington HD. No different classes or density's(that I know of?). And I believe it's cheaper if I remember right.

Am I missing something here? :?[/quote]

dude, check the price tag! The last time I checked it out it was way more expensive and it patterns like crap. Hit a bird three times and still flew away...and I ain't no bad shot either.




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