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 Post subject: Picture of the proper sight picture?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 2:11 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:32 am
Posts: 32
Location: Pakistan
I am new to shotguns and have shot just a few shells mostly at skeet. My question is about what sight picture I am supposed to see in a properly mounted gun. Should I see most of the rib, or just some? As it may be difficult to understand a description, does anyone have a photo of what it is supposed to look like?

If there is a photo, I could use that to also check if I need more drop (I have shims that came with the gun so the drop can be adjusted). I have the feeling that I have to bend my neck to get my cheek to the stock and have the rib line up.

Thanks in advance.

:)




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 Post subject: re: Picture of the proper sight picture?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 9:12 am 
Diamond Grade
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Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:55 pm
Posts: 1622
There is no one proper picture. Different guns will show different amounts of rib. What you need is some time at the patterning board. First try some blind-mounting with the gun empty. Pick a spot to target, the finial atop a lamp is fine, focus on the finial, close your eyes and mount the gun how it feels natural...does it lay the bead on or close to the aim point? if not then adjust the shims. Then go to a patterning board and see if the gun now shoots where you have been looking. Then fine tune the shims.

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 Post subject: re: Picture of the proper sight picture?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:07 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:32 am
Posts: 32
Location: Pakistan
Thanks Magoo. So there are no shortcuts instead of the patterning board, huh? Can you at least advise me how upright (or not) my neck should be with a proper mount with a good fitting gun? What are the basics of a good mount with a fitting gun?

I am looking for such advice as I have read so much about the mount and how the eye replaces the rear sight. If I do not know the correct mount and lock in to that, I will never hit consistently.


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 Post subject: re: Picture of the proper sight picture?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:12 am 
Diamond Grade
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Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 6:55 pm
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Quote:
If I do not know the correct mount and lock in to that, I will never hit consistently.


That's why the "blind" test, it gets you to mount the gun naturally, where the gun falls naturally will be the most repeatable mount (consistent). Then if it doesn't shoot where you want, adjust the gun, not the mount.

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 Post subject: re: Picture of the proper sight picture?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:43 am 
*Proud to be a*
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Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 4:23 pm
Posts: 4621
Location: Brillion, WI
If your gun has a rib that is parallel to the barrel and does not slope down at the muzzle, you want to see little or none of the rib's surface with the gun mounted.

That statement is too general, however because several things affect the amount of rib that is able to be seen.

The upper portion of the gun's recoil pad, the heel, should be about an inch above your collarbone.

Your head and neck should be upright so your eyes are roughly in the center of their sockets.

Your gun should be mounted with the recoil pad just inside of your shoulder joint in an area known as the shoulder pocket.

When you shoot at something, the angle of the gun to a line across your shoulders should be 25 to 45 degrees. (Remember, you are not shooting a rifle.)

I mention the above because these rudiments of shooting form will affect how your cheek is placed on the comb (top surface of the stock) and the resulting height of your eye relative to the gun's rib (as well as its horizontal alignment with the rib).

Your cheek should be on the comb, snugly with only enough pressure to keep it in place during swings. The last thing you want is to allow your head (and eye) to flap around on the end of your neck during swings.

When that happens, the gun does not shoot where you look, i.e. shoot where you expect it will and unless it does, shooting accuracy will suffer. Sure, the gun throws a pattern that partially compensates for pointing errors but very little head movement on the stock during swings is necessary to cause a miss.

As magoo wrote, time at a pattern board can be time well invested. You should shoot using a solid rest and shoot at targets that are 13 yards from you.

You are patterning for point of impact (POI) and not to find shot distribution within the pattern. Shoot at four-inch crosses or pluses (+). Aim carefully and squeeze the trigger, unlike you would if you were shooting at a moving target.

The distance of the holes the shot makes (representing the center of the pattern at distances up to about 40 yards) from the pluses will allow you to compute where the center of the pattern will be at longer distances by computing the multiples of 13 yard distances and multiplying the distances of the center of the shot holes form the intersection of the lines that form the pluses.

Know in advance however, that the POI gotten when patterning, represents only where the pattern will impact at the distances you shoot with your eye is the exact position it was in relative to the rib when you patterned. It is the one shortcoming of patterning for POI.

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Rollin

Author: Stock Fitter's Bible, Second Edition - Gun-fitting & shooting instruction for shooters of all ages and disciplines. http://www.amazon.com in their book section.


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 Post subject: re: Picture of the proper sight picture?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 2:57 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:21 pm
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Location: UK
I'm not going to offer any personal opinion on this. I believe that the shotgun manufacturers know best how a shotgun should be miunted and they design them to be used with a sight picture which is well described here:
http://www.shotgunreport.com/Video/Inst/SRVGunFit4.html


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 Post subject: re: Picture of the proper sight picture?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:01 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:32 am
Posts: 32
Location: Pakistan
Thanks a lot magoo, Rollin, Trickster. This is clearly the friendliest shooting forum as advertised :)

I actually managed to hit a few different types of target yesterday; H1, L1, L2, H2, H7. These were with the gun pre-mounted. I had never got moving away targets before yesterday and it was a great confidence booster (I got them by almost covering the bird with the barrel, when I shot I seem to remember that the target was occluded by the barrel and I saw the bird exploding ; great feeling). Did not get all, but was pretty confident on station 1 and 2.

The succesful shots are with my neck down a bit, or I see too much of the rib. The pupils of my eyes are probably a bit above center, as I remember the upper edge of my shooting glasses being visible a bit above the bead. The rib I have on my gun (391 Teknys Gold Field) is tapered, meaning that the rib height is highest at the received and reduces further up the barrel. The sight picture I am trying for is a foreshortened rib (short rectangle), which I only get if I hunker down with my neck a little. I also noticed that the succesful shots were when I didn't seems to remember the rib / barrel when the shot broke and my memory was of seeing the bird breaking.

I will shoot a bit more to get some feel for it and then work at patterning as suggested. Once I know the POI with the gun (unfortunately there is no bench at my club, but I could still get an inkling..), I could decide what sort of sight picture shold I calibrate for for shooting; as mentioned in Rollin's advice POI tells me how the gun shoots with the sight picture I use.

The reason that I do not want to fiddle with the shims right now is that I do not know of a gunsmith / expert who can work with me face to face on it, so I would like to get some more experience before I know what I am doing.

Last question; my wife is not getting the hang of it at all. She is very interested in coming with me for skeet shooting and enjoys it better than pistol shooting, but does not seem to get the trick. She is 5'7" (I am 5'11"), so I realize that if the gun fits me, it will be a bit too long for her. Is there any advice for her to be able to shoot with my gun? Buying another gun is not really an option right now.


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 Post subject: re: Picture of the proper sight picture?
PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:05 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:32 am
Posts: 32
Location: Pakistan
I forgot one question:

Quote:
When you shoot at something, the angle of the gun to a line across your shoulders should be 25 to 45 degrees. (Remember, you are not shooting a rifle.)


Rollin, what did you mean by that; sorry didn't get it at all.

Thanks again in advance :wink:


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 Post subject: re: Picture of the proper sight picture?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:30 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 4:23 pm
Posts: 4621
Location: Brillion, WI
If the target you're shooting at is directly in front of you, you should not stand facing the target directly with your shoulders at 90 degrees to a line from you to the target.

If you shot right-handed, you would rotate your stance (position of your feet) clockwise up to 45 degrees so your stance becomes oblique or open.

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Rollin

Author: Stock Fitter's Bible, Second Edition - Gun-fitting & shooting instruction for shooters of all ages and disciplines. http://www.amazon.com in their book section.


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 Post subject: re: Picture of the proper sight picture?
PostPosted: Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:03 pm 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Thu May 26, 2005 8:11 am
Posts: 3998
Location: Manhattan Kansas
Baldilocks
Lots of men might ask Why would you want to teach her to shoot?

I think that it is great that she is interested. if you can find a shooting instructor who has experince teaching women shooters, invest in a shotgun lesson for her.

Most instructors I know would rather teach women shooters than men because women listen better and are more coachable.

good luck and welcome to shotgun world.

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Spencer

"A peculiar virtue in wildlife ethics is that the hunter ordinarily has no gallery to applaud or disapprove of his conduct. Whatever his acts, they are dictated by his own conscience, rather than by a mob of onlookers." Aldo Leopold


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 Post subject: re: Picture of the proper sight picture?
PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:32 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:32 am
Posts: 32
Location: Pakistan
Thanks for the clarification Rollin. I wouldn't stand square to the target in pistol or rifle shooting either...

As to why I would teach my wife to shoot, its a fun activity to share. Plus if she is into shooting, I don't have to justify the expense on ammo / guns :wink:


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 Post subject: re: Picture of the proper sight picture?
PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:16 pm 
Presentation Grade
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Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:41 pm
Posts: 871
Location: Republic of Texas
I just taught my fiance to shoot this summer, she is beginning to get very good. I started her out on a practice field early in the morning when we had it almost to ourselves. They were slow straight away shots, always at the same angle, and as she became more proficient in hitting those consistently, we moved onto the skeet field. She missed quite a few, so we moved back to the practice field, I instructed her on the various leads and explained how to anticipate where the bird is going to be and not to concentrate so hard on aiming at one particular point. Mounting pointing and shooting should all be one fluid movement, not rigid or tense, ALWAYS follow your bird even though you have shot and hit, this follow-through will help keep sustained lead and you will begin to break more targets !! We moved back onto the skeet field in a few weeks and she honestly beat me the first round, WHAT A SMILE. I believe you should start (if you are right handed) with your left foot pointing into the direction of where you plan to break the target, feet a little more than shoulder width apart, your upper torso approximately 45 degrees to the target, mount the gun to your shoulder, lean forward slightly on your front foot, lower your head slightly down onto the comb of the stock, it should touch the fleshy portion just above your top row of teeth, how much of the rib you see will depend on your first broken target, practice with straight going away shots with the gun pre-mounted, once you become proficient in hitting those targets, practice the same shots with the stock down at waist level, the muzzle pointing at the target,call for the bird, when you see the target mount the gun, point and shoot, once you get proficient in hitting these relatively easy targets, you have practiced your gun mount to the point it is beginning to become second nature, you are then ready to move onto sporting clays and skeet, this is where you will learn more of sustained lead and sight picture relative to the direction and angle of the target.
You mentioned your gun has a tapered rib, your description sound as though it may be a trap gun, and will shoot a little high as it is designed for rising targets at 30 to 45 yards, this you may have to compensate for ...aim lower from center in increments on the practice field until you begin to break targets, keep lowering your aim until the targets are smoked, there is your point of aim, you may then adjust the gun accordingly.
Gun fit is important, and the previous posters are correct in their very good advice, I was just sharing what works for me, you might find it works for you. Welcome , you will find quite a bit of knowledge and expert advice here.


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 Post subject: re: Picture of the proper sight picture?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:28 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 4:23 pm
Posts: 4621
Location: Brillion, WI
Baldilocks,

I forgot to answer the question about your wife shooting a gun with a stock that is too long. The only thing she can do is to stand with her shoulders aligned in the direction she is pointing the gun to shoot targets.

Instead of standing with a stance that is rotated up to 45 degrees, your wife could stand with a stance that approaches 180-degrees of rotation. It will limit her swing distance to the left if she shoots right-handed but it will offer some compensation for a stock that is too long.

_________________
Rollin

Author: Stock Fitter's Bible, Second Edition - Gun-fitting & shooting instruction for shooters of all ages and disciplines. http://www.amazon.com in their book section.


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 Post subject: re: Picture of the proper sight picture?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 11:44 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 11:32 am
Posts: 32
Location: Pakistan
Thank you Rollin for making extra effort to answer all my questions. Much appreciated.

:D




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