Shotgunworld.com

i saw this, and thought i should offer my opinion on the matter. first off, if you're looking for a shotgun comparable to the ak-47, than a saiga-12 is the way to go since it is basically the 12 gauge verson of the ak-47, and it is affordable at around $300 new as well.

as far as remington and mossberg goes, i have two 870's, and i would trust my life to either one. in the thousands of rounds i have through these guns, ive only had 2 jams that i can think of - both were caused by the shell not ejecting all the way. i would personally choose the 870

i dont have a lot of experience with mossbergs yet. i just bought a 590 with the heatshield, bayonet lug, 8 round magazine, etc. and i love it. ive only put ~100 rounds through it so far, so im not sure which is better yet


-Tim

simpsons kick a$$ my good friend!

Don't believe you can't wear out a 870SP. I did it, and it was not easy. Also wore out an 1100, I now have a 590(A1) Mossberg and the biggest reason is a 20" modified choke barrel. Would like a trigger like a early Model 12 (or '97) in it, to speed up performance and the safety position is easier to deal with. Can't go wrong with either package really. As far as field stripping I like the 870 if all you do is pull the barrel and trigger group.

It's possible to wear out anything.

Given that the average tac shotgun (for the average rube, not a hardcore 3-gun shooter) is a shoot-little, sit in the closet-much proposition, I sincerely doubt that the steel-vs-aluminum receiver question will even be an issue, at least as far as service lifespan.

For a dedicated trap/skeet or 3-gun shooter who envisions putting a couple thousand rounds down the line each year, it may matter.

My personal decision to get a mossberg came down to first, ergonomics, and second, price. I personally find a tang safety and behind-the-trigger-guard action release to be more intuitive. If you've trained extensively with guns that have a triggerguard crossbolt, you may feel differently, in which case, get the Remington. As to the price consideration, I'm sure you can find a decent used 870 for a fair price, but I was an impatient bugger.

Ok, it's late and I haven't read all the posts, if some of this is repeat data, my apologies. There has been a lot of talk of the superior ergos of the Mossies, let's talk about one of the biggest ergos of all in a pump shotgun: smoothness of the action. The 870 is very far ahead of the 500 series guns here, I include the well used 590 I polished big time trying to achieve an action as good as a cheapo Express 870. The Nova is interesting but...it's HUGE! In every dimension this gun is just plain chubby. However, it feels lighter than it really is, an ounce more than a 20" 870 I weighed. I have a 35 inch sleeve and the stock (which is a colossal pain to shorten being synthetic and non-removable) is much too long for a defensive piece. Overall length of the Nova for the 18.5" tube is equal to an 870 with a 20". Smooth enough action but the forend can really pinch your hand/fingers if you're not careful how you grip it. The 3.5" chambering makes for a long stroke and I defy anyone to come up with a use for 3.5's except in a duck blind. Nice gun if you are 6'2", no kidding. I'm giving mine to a Lurch-like future brother-in-law who also duck hunts. There are some interesting posts on the tacticalforums.com website (use the search function!) about the disdain the Seal teams and others have for the Mossies, probably not totally applicable to us but it is good stuff to know. I finally learned my lesson, 870 for me. Of course, I've lost all sense of proportion and I am putting a Vang barrel on a Wilson Border Patrol model. The Express 20" gun from the box (or even better second hand) is just fine for a civvie social shotgun.

Holy ancient text Batman, I just noticed how old this thread is. This really is a Chevy/Ford/Dodge debate. I suppose the Nova is the Dodge.

No, the Winchester is the Dodge.

I thought the Nova was a Chevy...

What a pinhead I am, a Chevy Nova, of course! I did say it was late.

Pi,

In regards to the slickness of the 500-series action--I'll admit, my 590 does require a firmer pull on the slide than might be ideal.

That said, in the space of the 3-4 boxes of ammo I've run through it, as well as moderate-to-extensive dry-fire handling, it's slicked up considerably in less than a month

I imagine that within a year, it'll cycle like butter sliding down a griddle.

JKVirginia, it will get better but only to a point. Mine was well used before my foray into the world of abrasives and the end result just never made it. Definitely servicable but not slick. I made the mistake of ditching a perfectly good 870 Express for a 590DA1. I thought the DA trigger a clever idea (still do) but it lost all appeal when the trigger absolutely locked up, on two occasions. Interestingly, the DA pull was no real impediment to accurate slug shooting. The heavy barrel profile and modified choke on this gun was superb for buck and slug. I'll bet R.A.H. carried a chopped M12 Winchester, what do ya think...?

The Mossberg 590 is a piece of $hit. My unit had them and we successfully broke every one of them about 6 months after we got them. They don't feed right, the action feels like you poured sand in it. They're crap. That whole built by the lowest bidder is painfully obvious here.

The 870 is a wonderful gun. My old man has one that has around 125,000 rounds through it and it fires as good today as it did when he got it ten years ago. We shoot a LOT.

You couldn't run fast enough to GIVE me a mossberg.

Cool, Ranger. Now, how about some more facts.
What type of unit were you in? What was the use
of the weapon? How many rounds were put through
these in six months? What did the unit armorer say
the reason was they didn't "feed right." Plastic trigger
group? I want to hear from someone in the military that
can site SPECIFIC FACTS as to why, and which models of
Mossberg were problematic. BTW, I have a Vang Comp
590A1, so I really want to know when it will self destruct.
Anyone in LE that cares to contribute to this great debate?
Inquiring minds want to know! Regards, Greg

I hesitate to speak for Clayslayer a.k.a. Ranger. However... unless he was the unit armorer or S-3 he probably doesn't have the statistics you desire and is reporting his and his peers' experiences. The opinion he holds is nearly universal amongst the trigger pullers who count. Use the search function on Tacticalforum.com, it was certainly an education for me. The Mossy is probably just fine for the level of abuse the typical civilian (or even a P.D.) will ever subject it to so there's no need to ditch yours. Particularly since I know what Hans Vang charges. Mine, fortunately, will soon be only a bad memory. It's hard to understand until you've seen it just how badly G.I. gear of any sort is treated in the field. There are just too many things going on and stuff that needs to get done to make coddling a shotgun (which is rarely anybody's primary weapon) likely. That's why Milspecs are written the way they are. Whatever Mossberg says in its' ads (3000 rounds really isn't much in this environment) the Remingtons get the nod by those on the ground. The jury is still out on the new Benelli.

Thanks 314159. Interesting coments on tacticalforum.com.
Guess I better not try to sell mine to an ex-seal

I did some research before I bought the Mossy, but didn't
find this forum, or tacticalforum.com till after the purchase.
I liked the dual extractors, straight feed, and position
of the slide release and safety. Never had shot a pump before,
so action smoothness seemed ok for a "combat" type weapon. Vang wanted something like $500 more for an 870 set up like the 590A1. I just believed, for my use, that there couldn't be that much difference in the two.

Anyway, I will now embark on my own torture test of
the Mossy(non-DA) and post any problems. BTW, I highly
recommend the Vang treatment. About 12" at 25 yards
with Federal Tactical 8 pellet. Ammoman.com had this for
$100 case. Regards, Greg

As I posted somewhere else "... in the future I will first research, then buy." Usually, the instant gratification gene kicks in and I soon have something else that isn't exactly what I want. Oh well. I have two Vang barrels myself, one is SUPERB, the other only OK. The first was manufactured by BarSto, the other originally a Remington 11-87P barrel modified by Gunsite. Have fun.

Sure. You asked what kind of unit I was in while we used the Mossberg 590's. You want to make sure I'm the real thing eh? Well I graduated class 10-02 from Ranger school and I was stationed in the Stryker Brigade in Ft. Lewis WA. I was an infantry platoon leader for 8 months prior to being moved up to Battalion staff. Staff sucks. A lot. I did that for close to a year before I moved on. I wish I was still a platoon leader. That was a hell of a lot of fun. I'm purposely not telling you what specific battalion I was in or where I am now due to security purposes.

The 590's out of the box were pretty good. They shot fine and worked out for us pretty well however after a while they started to go to crap. Many of the problems encountered with them were not due to a small list of manufacturing defects but a wide range of problems. Also they were usually issued to a new private, and privates will beat any piece of equipment senseless weather he is trying to or not. Mainly we used the 590's in a MOUT environment, usually to breach doorways by shooting off the knobs. Outside a town they're pretty useless as the range is like, well, that of a shotgun. Most of the failures that we encountered were due to the extensive amount of abuse that we made these poor things suffer. That and maintenence. Or rather an overabundance of. Squad leaders would try to have a "joe" dissassemble every moving part of the weapon to clean it. I put a stop to that in a hurry. In a pump gun, all you need to clean is the major working parts, swab the bore, and knock the big chunks off. That's it. When you have a moron tear down the trigger group and he don't know how to put it back together again the weapon rather sucks afterward. As far as # of rounds through them - I put more rounds through my Beretta 686 in the first month I owned it than any of these weapons have had through them since we got them.

One thing that really ticks me off is that we tried out a couple of FANTASTIC Benelli shotguns with collapasable stocks that were just freaking awesome. However the Mossy's were a lot cheaper or something. I don't know the exact reason why we didn't go with the Benelli semi-autos but we didn't. People who make a lot more money than I do made that decision.

We tried all the cool "go faster" equipment on them and found that none of it was really worth the packaging that it was put in. One guy went out and bought a real nice Pachmyer forend and rear pistol grip. That was great, easy to hold, easy to use, even wet but the cost was more than the S4 and XO cared to spend. We tried the sidesaddles on the sides to hold extra ammo and that proved to be pathetically useless. Aimpoints were even more worthless. They just blocked the sight picture. If you take the time to look through an aimpoint you're dead. There isn't enough time when you're put up against a prepared enemy.

Our final result was the factory black polymer stock, 18" barrel, and a magazine extension. We rigged up some cool slings for them too as a shotgun is never a primary weapon. The weapon hung to the side until it was needed.

Personally I hate the 590. It does what it was intended to do but at the bare minimum in my opinion. If the 590 was a car it'd be a Geo Metro. Granted it'll get you from point a to point b, but that's about it. I judge how good a weapon is by weather or not I'd buy one for myself. Personally I'd never consider buying one(590). I'm a big fan of the M-4 and wouldn't mind having one of them, we recently starting issuing out Leupold scoped M-14's for designated marksmen and I'd cut off a toe for one of those!

Thanks Clayslayer for the additional information.
What can I say? If the the 870's put up with the same abuse
and performed, they are the better weapon for your environment. Since I baby all my firearms, I guess the Mossy
will survive. Thanks again for the input! Maybe I'll take my
time and research a good semi-auto. Keep is informed on
the Benelli! Regards, Greg

If you are married to a pistol grip stock. Go with the 870. the tang mounted safety on a Mossberg is problematic with a pistol grip. This I found out the hard way. But life is good! I bought a 590 and kept the standard stock.(will replace it with a Sully stock as soon as they are available... shorter LOP)

Not to start a flame war.....

I trained with a 590 in the Military Police... never saw a 870.

I have been through numerous shotgun classes and have seen EVERY make and model malfunction.

I shoot shotguns for a living. Based on this I chose Mossberg for my defense and tactical req's.