Shotgun Forum banner

e c green shotgun

8K views 15 replies 7 participants last post by  nanooktoo 
#1 ·
Please advise of any information re the following:

E. C. Green shotgun
Serial number marked "NO 2779"
Double side barrels/double triggers
Heavily etched metal on barrels/ trigger guard, including hunting scenes
Etching on wood stock at barrel and trigger areas
Metal stock end with screw
 
#2 ·
Edwinson C Green of Cheltenham and Birmingham were in the top tier of provincial English gunmakers but I do not have a lot of info on them at the moment. Serial # 2779 would date the gun before 1881 so far as I can tell.
If you post some good pics of the gun, with close ups of the barrel flats and proof marks I am sure more forum members will provide information.
 
#3 ·
E. C. Green & Co. Edwin Charles Green was a gun maker, patentee and sporting goods distributor located in London from 1870-1929. He was issued a number of patents for firearms improvements including a pivoting mechanism, a rubber recoil pad and a colored front sight. Green also acted as patent agent for F.J. Abbey and J.H. Foster of Chicago to register their patents in Britain. Source: Side by sides of the World for Y2K
 
#4 ·
Didn't you ask this question once before? Also about G & A Hayden. G. & A. Hayden was a dealer. gunsmith and importer located in Jacksonville Illinois from 1880 to 1888 and 1896 under various other names.They were the exclusive importer for the E.C. Green made shotguns into the United States.
 
#5 ·
According to the surviving records of Edwinson Charles Green they were based in Birmingham & Cheltenham but there is no record of a London address.
The records are in the possession of Lewis Potter at Potter & Walker,Metford Villa,177 Pershore Road,Evesham, Worcestershire WR11 2NB. Their telephone number is 01386 47241. Calling fom the US I think you add the country code 044 and drop the 0 at 1386.
Had a look on Google but they do not appear to have an email address listed.
just had another dig around - you can send them a fax on the same number :)
 
#6 ·
Thanks to all for your responses with good lead information. I will pursue to determine age and value of gun. I was hopeful the serial number would make it easy.

Ned Fall- You are correct sir, though I did not remember posting before. I now have noted again the Cheltenham and Hayden information between the two barrels.

Can anyone suggest an appropriate way to wall mount this gun (with the classic W. H. Lippincott, 1891 portrait "Solid Comfort")? This shotgun is in very good condition and will look great below such a classic painting of a working man seated by his dog at his huge country kitchen hearth, the original of which was painted about the time the gun was made. I have not seen commercial wall mounts that were suitable in my eyes.
 
#7 ·
I have similar E.C. Green double barrel Damascus 12 gague with a side release. Mine is serial number 1560 (circa 1880 +/-), apparently from the earliest production of the company. Mine is in really nice shape. I bought it from an antique shop in Santa Barbara, CA in about 1975. I think I paid around $650 for it at the time. The antique dealer didn't know much about it either. I don't think it was used much at all.

Did you ever get a value for yours?

It is a real great looking antique shotgun!
 
#8 ·
Thank you for your reply.

I have not determined a value to date. My gun's stock is cracked and, in addition to all of my questions above, I want to know how to restore the stock properly. Otherwise, it is in very good condition, and the etchings are remarkable.

Please advise if you learn more about our guns.

Thanks again.
 
#10 ·
nanook: there is almost no chance the gun started out as a "coach gun", and its value is only as a wall hanger until a qualified double gun specialist smith (with a bore scope and wall thickness gauge) establishes the safety of the barrels and action.
It you would post a close up in focus image of the barrel flats, we could at least give you a range for the DOM.
 
#14 ·
Excellent Edwin C. Green information from the Internet Gun Club

Name Edwin (Edwinson) C Green
Other Names Edwinson Green & Son; Edwinson Green & Sons
Address1 282 Great Lister Street
Address2 16 1/2 St Mary's Row
Address3 12 Weaman Street
Address4 87 High Street, Cheltenham
Address5 The Strand, Cheltenham
Address6 99 High Street, Cheltenham
Address7 77 High Street, Cheltenham
City/Town Birmingham
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gunmaker
Other Address 55 High Street, Cheltenham.
Gloucester Addresses: 4 Northgate Street; 16 Northgate Street; The Cross; 4 Northgate Street; 6 Northgate Street.
Dates 1863-1980

Notes

Edwinson (in his early years known as Edwin) Charles Green was born in 1839 in Oldbury, Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire. He was the son of John Green, a cooper, and Charlotte Green. He had two brothers, George (b.1831) and William (b.1837), and one sister, Elizabeth (b.1835). It would seem that Charlotte died or left with the two girls, because by 1851 John Green and the two sons were living as lodgers with Mary Morris, a shopkeeper (almost certainly a hat maker), in High Street, Oldbury. Like his father, William Green became a cooper. At the age of 11 Edwin had left school, and worked for Mary Morris as a pin (hatpin?) straightener (the entry in the 1851 census record is difficult to read). Possibly on the advice of William V Green (his uncle?) who later traded as a gun maker in Gloucester, Edwin moved to Birmingham. He seems to have been apprenticed there, but to whom is unknown. In the 1861 census he was recorded as Edwin Green, a gun finisher lodging with William Cork, a blacksmith. In 1865 he established his own business trading as a gun and rifle maker at 282 Great Lister Street, Birmingham. In 1866 he entered guns in the Field Gun Trials and took the two first prizes (he later took first, second and third prizes in the New York Gun Trials, and won the President's Diamond Badge in Chicago). In 1867 he married Elizabeth (b.1838 in Liverpool) and moved to Cheltenham where he opened a shop at 87 High Street. The business in Birmingham continued. Edwin and Elizabeth had a daughter, Charlotte Elizabeth in 1868 and a son, Charles Frederick Green in 1870. They had three other children, Amy C (b.1873), Frederick H (b.1874) and Alfred E (b.1876).

In about 1874, Edwinson took over his uncle's firm in Gloucester and moved it to 4 Northgate Street. On 8 April 1871 he took out his first patent, it was No. 929 for a drop-down barrel action incorporating transverse bolts locking the lumps. On 23 September 1871 he also patented an alternative triple bolting mechanism (No. 2522). Between 1875 and 1879 the Birmingham workshop moved to 16 1/2 St Mary's Row, and between 1879 and 1886 it moved to 12 Weaman Street. On 28 November 1885 Edwinson patented a drop-down barrel action with transversely dovetailed barrel lumps, locking bolts and trigger plate lock and a safety catch (No. 14626). On 18 December 1889 Edwinson patented a stirrup type revolver with a lightweight barrel, gas ports and dust covers (No. 20321). He had always sold revolvers many of them made by Thomas Thacker of Birmingham.

It appears that the workshop in Birmingham was not recorded after 1890, but it is apparent that the firm, were still involved in making guns and there is a report that it moved to 16 Vesey Street. The same report states that in the Cheltenham shop alone (which had a short testing range) between 32 and 36 men were employed. In the 1891 census Charlotte and Amy C both worked as a shop assistants (but not necessarily for Edwinson). Charles Frederick (aged 21) was employed by his father as a gun maker, and Frederick H (aged 17) was employed as an assistant in the shop. Alfred E (aged 15) was employed as an ironmonger's assistant. In 1894, the firm was re-named Edwinson Charles Green & Son, and the shop in Gloucester was moved to 16 Northgate Street. This was the first of a sucession of moves, in about 1905 it was recorded back at 4 Northgate Street, in about 1909 it was recorded at The Cross, in 1913 it was recorded back at 4 Northgate Street and from 1922 to about 1928 it was at 6 Northgate Street. The shop appears to closed in about 1928. In 1897 Edwinson Green and Frederick H Green patented an adjustable single trigger mechanism (Patent No. 14877). On 9 July 1902 Edwinson Green patented a single trigger for a three barrel gun (No. 15307) which was made in 16 and 12 bore versions. Westley Richards thought so highly of the design that they obtained permission to make a gun to that design for the Turin Exhibition in 1911 and won a gold medal with it (see also Child, Dickson and Boss). At about this time Green made round action shotguns using John Dickson's patent.

In 1912 the firm was re-named Edwinson Green & Sons. The name change may have been in recognition of the fact that on 4 April 1912 E C and F H Green patented their Over / Under action with a selective ejector (No. 8225). Later that year the patent was improved by patent No. 14951 by E C and F H Green for a locking lug. This was the famous O/U for which Atholl Purdey purchased manufacturing rights in 1922. On 3 November 1913 patent No. 24983 by E C and F H Green was for an electro-magnetic safety operated by a plate in the butt. Edwinson Green died in 1930, and presumably Charles F Green and Frederick H Green took over the business. In 1942 the shop in Cheltenham moved to The Strand (in 1947 gunmaking reportedly ceased), and in 1957 to 99 High Street. In 1961 the shop moved to 77 High Street, and in 1963 it moved to 55 High Street. From the late 1960s the firm increasingly traded in tools and hardware and sales of guns ceased, it closed in about 1980. The records of the firm survived and are held by Lewis Potter of Potter & Walker, 177 Pershore Road, Evesham WR11 2NB (potterwalker@tesco.net) who make a small charge for a record search. Internet Gun Club has some details of serial numbers and dates of manufacture which we have not published. Please send details of your gun and its serial number by email to archives@internetgunclub.com and we will reply with what information we have.

Other Info
The firm sold cartridges under the names "Fur & Feather" (post 1910), "Maxim" (Edwinson Green & Son post 1910) the "Maximum" (Edwinson Green & Sons post 1910, the "Cotswold", the "Velox" (post 1918) and the "Fur & Feather" (post 1910).
 
#16 ·
Excellent Edwin C. Green information from the Internet Gun Club

Name Edwin (Edwinson) C Green
Other Names Edwinson Green & Son; Edwinson Green & Sons
Address1 282 Great Lister Street
Address2 16 1/2 St Mary's Row
Address3 12 Weaman Street
Address4 87 High Street, Cheltenham
Address5 The Strand, Cheltenham
Address6 99 High Street, Cheltenham
Address7 77 High Street, Cheltenham
City/Town Birmingham
Country United Kingdom
Trade Gunmaker
Other Address 55 High Street, Cheltenham.
Gloucester Addresses: 4 Northgate Street; 16 Northgate Street; The Cross; 4 Northgate Street; 6 Northgate Street.
Dates 1863-1980

Notes

Edwinson (in his early years known as Edwin) Charles Green was born in 1839 in Oldbury, Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire. He was the son of John Green, a cooper, and Charlotte Green. He had two brothers, George (b.1831) and William (b.1837), and one sister, Elizabeth (b.1835). It would seem that Charlotte died or left with the two girls, because by 1851 John Green and the two sons were living as lodgers with Mary Morris, a shopkeeper (almost certainly a hat maker), in High Street, Oldbury. Like his father, William Green became a cooper. At the age of 11 Edwin had left school, and worked for Mary Morris as a pin (hatpin?) straightener (the entry in the 1851 census record is difficult to read). Possibly on the advice of William V Green (his uncle?) who later traded as a gun maker in Gloucester, Edwin moved to Birmingham. He seems to have been apprenticed there, but to whom is unknown. In the 1861 census he was recorded as Edwin Green, a gun finisher lodging with William Cork, a blacksmith. In 1865 he established his own business trading as a gun and rifle maker at 282 Great Lister Street, Birmingham. In 1866 he entered guns in the Field Gun Trials and took the two first prizes (he later took first, second and third prizes in the New York Gun Trials, and won the President's Diamond Badge in Chicago). In 1867 he married Elizabeth (b.1838 in Liverpool) and moved to Cheltenham where he opened a shop at 87 High Street. The business in Birmingham continued. Edwin and Elizabeth had a daughter, Charlotte Elizabeth in 1868 and a son, Charles Frederick Green in 1870. They had three other children, Amy C (b.1873), Frederick H (b.1874) and Alfred E (b.1876).

In about 1874, Edwinson took over his uncle's firm in Gloucester and moved it to 4 Northgate Street. On 8 April 1871 he took out his first patent, it was No. 929 for a drop-down barrel action incorporating transverse bolts locking the lumps. On 23 September 1871 he also patented an alternative triple bolting mechanism (No. 2522). Between 1875 and 1879 the Birmingham workshop moved to 16 1/2 St Mary's Row, and between 1879 and 1886 it moved to 12 Weaman Street. On 28 November 1885 Edwinson patented a drop-down barrel action with transversely dovetailed barrel lumps, locking bolts and trigger plate lock and a safety catch (No. 14626). On 18 December 1889 Edwinson patented a stirrup type revolver with a lightweight barrel, gas ports and dust covers (No. 20321). He had always sold revolvers many of them made by Thomas Thacker of Birmingham.

It appears that the workshop in Birmingham was not recorded after 1890, but it is apparent that the firm, were still involved in making guns and there is a report that it moved to 16 Vesey Street. The same report states that in the Cheltenham shop alone (which had a short testing range) between 32 and 36 men were employed. In the 1891 census Charlotte and Amy C both worked as a shop assistants (but not necessarily for Edwinson). Charles Frederick (aged 21) was employed by his father as a gun maker, and Frederick H (aged 17) was employed as an assistant in the shop. Alfred E (aged 15) was employed as an ironmonger's assistant. In 1894, the firm was re-named Edwinson Charles Green & Son, and the shop in Gloucester was moved to 16 Northgate Street. This was the first of a sucession of moves, in about 1905 it was recorded back at 4 Northgate Street, in about 1909 it was recorded at The Cross, in 1913 it was recorded back at 4 Northgate Street and from 1922 to about 1928 it was at 6 Northgate Street. The shop appears to closed in about 1928. In 1897 Edwinson Green and Frederick H Green patented an adjustable single trigger mechanism (Patent No. 14877). On 9 July 1902 Edwinson Green patented a single trigger for a three barrel gun (No. 15307) which was made in 16 and 12 bore versions. Westley Richards thought so highly of the design that they obtained permission to make a gun to that design for the Turin Exhibition in 1911 and won a gold medal with it (see also Child, Dickson and Boss). At about this time Green made round action shotguns using John Dickson's patent.

In 1912 the firm was re-named Edwinson Green & Sons. The name change may have been in recognition of the fact that on 4 April 1912 E C and F H Green patented their Over / Under action with a selective ejector (No. 8225). Later that year the patent was improved by patent No. 14951 by E C and F H Green for a locking lug. This was the famous O/U for which Atholl Purdey purchased manufacturing rights in 1922. On 3 November 1913 patent No. 24983 by E C and F H Green was for an electro-magnetic safety operated by a plate in the butt. Edwinson Green died in 1930, and presumably Charles F Green and Frederick H Green took over the business. In 1942 the shop in Cheltenham moved to The Strand (in 1947 gunmaking reportedly ceased), and in 1957 to 99 High Street. In 1961 the shop moved to 77 High Street, and in 1963 it moved to 55 High Street. From the late 1960s the firm increasingly traded in tools and hardware and sales of guns ceased, it closed in about 1980. The records of the firm survived and are held by Lewis Potter of Potter & Walker, 177 Pershore Road, Evesham WR11 2NB (potterwalker@tesco.net) who make a small charge for a record search. Internet Gun Club has some details of serial numbers and dates of manufacture which we have not published. Please send details of your gun and its serial number by email to archives@internetgunclub.com and we will reply with what information we have.

Other Info
The firm sold cartridges under the names "Fur & Feather" (post 1910), "Maxim" (Edwinson Green & Son post 1910) the "Maximum" (Edwinson Green & Sons post 1910, the "Cotswold", the "Velox" (post 1918) and the "Fur & Feather" (post 1910).

Fascinating. Where did you get all of that information? The Internet Gun Club E-Mail address you listed does not seem to work. Maybe later.
Thanks,
 
#15 ·
I am not aware of a list of E.C. Green DOM based on SNs., but we can establish from the proof marks that your gun was proved 1875-1887 by the "Not For Ball" and 10B (10 gauge breech) and 12M (12g choke constriction at the muzzle).
That also establishes that the gun did not start as a "Coach Gun".

The barrels are Twist.

It's value is as a wall hanger until a qualified double gun specialist gunsmith evaluates the gun. It should not be used, with ANY load, until thereafter.

An E.C. Green 10g SN 3698 that sold in 2014

16 gauge SN 3615
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top