CalendarCalendar   Photos  * FAQ
It is currently Tue Sep 02, 2014 9:00 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Image



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 78 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 8:24 pm 
Site Admin
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2000 3:51 pm
Posts: 5050
Location: Decatur, AL
Sporting Shotgun Performance
Measurement, Analysis, Optimization
by DR. A.C. Jones

See my review at
http://www.shotgunworld.com/shotguninsight.html
Image
From the author:
Seven years in the making, 2500 test patterns, clay pigeon impact tests, computational fluid dynamics analysis: There is no other book on shotgun performance quite like this!

_________________
Also visit:
ShootingWorld.com
PistolWorld.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Sporting Shotgun Performance
PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2011 11:20 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:57 am
Posts: 20660
Location: So Cal (Near Edwards AFB)
I'm glad to see this here. This book deserves the advertisement. It is a must read for anyone serious about shooting shotguns.

_________________
Remember, you can post here because they died over there.

“Endeavor to clear your mind of can't.” - Francis P. Church

Image

Col 4:6
Hate the ads? Become a Bonus Member, click here.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 3:54 am 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:00 am
Posts: 1633
Jay, Dr. Jones,
If this book is so wonderful why is it not readily available in the UK?
Has it been reviewed in the UK?
Where can I buy a copy in the UK?
Is not £35 not expensive for a paperback?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:38 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:21 pm
Posts: 3875
Location: UK
salopian wrote:
Jay, Dr. Jones,
If this book is so wonderful why is it not readily available in the UK?

It is available.

salopian wrote:
Where can I buy a copy in the UK?

waterstones or amazon.

Next.... {hs#

_________________
"Ah, but a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's Heaven for?"

Robert Browning


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:25 am 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:00 am
Posts: 1633
Thanks for that Trickster,
Amazon do not recognise the Author or title.
Waterstones have no stock anywhere either in the warehouse or any stores.
Have you got a copy? Any good?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 2:33 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 2:14 pm
Posts: 15
Location: Herefordshire, UK
Salopian - try this website to order online in the UK - it's where I got my copy from:
www.completelynovel.com/books/124016

_________________
Clive B


"Thou cunning'st pattern of excellent nature" - Othello or was that Jimmy Muller?
The gun is simply the instrument the brain uses to achieve the result it knows you desire.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 5:28 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 4:31 pm
Posts: 653
Location: Ye Olde England
Well, I'm sure you have all heard the story about the chap who has a squeaky floor board. He tries everything to cure it, but fails. He calls in a number of experts who also fail. Finally, he calls in an old-timer. The old boy walks across the floor and takes out his hammer, and then hits one nail. The squeak is gone. He presents a bill for $200. The homeowner is aghast and remonstrates; it only took seconds, how can the bill be hundreds? The old boy replies you're not paying for the swinging of the hammer, but the knowing where to hit, which in turn came from years of experience.

So, is £35 expensive for a paper back? It's certainly expensive for the paper, but then you're not buying paper, you are buying knowledge. If you wanted to get this knowledge yourself, what would it cost?

Some 7-8 years ago, someone got in touch with me about the pattern analysis software. He had a team of programmers working on a similar task but they could not get it to work. He had spent ~$100K on it to date. So, just for argument's sake, take the cost of the software as $100K if you paid someone to write it – that's 2004 figures, so call it $150K in today's money. On top of the scanning software, the book uses more code – about the same number of lines as the scanning software but more straightforward, so assume it would cost another $50K for a professional programmer. ($200K)

Next, there are the commercial software licences. The one for Matlab is ~$2500 - $10,000 per year. I don't know what CCM+ costs but I'd guess upwards of a few thousand dollars a year. Plus, you need to know how to use them or outsource the work. ($15,000)

It's one thing outsourcing programming, but you need to tell the programmer what to do. If you only have the idea you'll need a mathematician of some sort to explain to the programmer what is needed in terms they can implement. What would a consultant mathematician cost? If you could find one, probably a few tens of thousands, say $50K. ($50K)

So far, you are down about $300,000. Time to start some data gathering! If you can do 30 patterns a day, the 3000 odd patterns will take 100 days. Bill this at $10/hour, $80/day, or $8000 for the lot. If you don't value your sanity, you can scan about 30 patterns a day, so that’s another $8000. ($16,000)

The cost of computers, cameras, paper, shells, gun trades, chokes, fuel, range hire came to about $20,000.

Now you are ready to sit down and start reducing the data to conclusions, writing it all up, making some kind of story out of it. Even if you average one page per day, that’s ~300 days of labour. Since we are not talking kid's story book here, you have to bill at a professional rate, say $100K per year, or ~$125K for the 300 days. ($125K)

That's a grand total of ~$425,000. I know a lot of people will cry foul here and say you'd "do it yourself" and not pay going rates. But the thing is, unless you are a programmer, mathematician, engineer, and practical physicist, and have access to the tools, the task won't get done. $55 for access to $400,000 of unique effort that won't be repeated; it's a bargain really. Bear in mind also, that $425,000 does not include the value of having the ideas, which really are priceless.

Of course, you might be the person who looks at a fine gun and says, "It's a lot of money for some wood and metal".

_________________
Work is the curse of the drinking classes.

Sporting Shotgun Performance: http://www.shotgun-insight.com/books.html
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:21 am 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:00 am
Posts: 1633
Dr. Jones,
I do not dispute the value you have placed upon your research, if that is what you think you are worth.
What I was asking is ' Is your book worth £35 for a paperback?' When you consider the work carried out by Ed Lowry, Journee, Oberfell & Thompson, and the work carried out by Dr. Roger Giblin & David Compton, what new ground does your book break? Just give us a little nugget or two about what you discovered in your research.
As for your theory about one pellet breaks, I have to ask what initiated this train of thought? When you consider that in clay shooting we are talking of using loads containing multi-pellets, where does the one pellet break theory sit and of what practical use is it?
Has your book been made available for review in Gt.Britain, who reviewed it ?
My views expressed may seem to be negative or even anti, but I can assure you I am only interested in answers and progress. Show me the facts and I will buy into them if it is not flawed science.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:37 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sun May 02, 2010 2:14 pm
Posts: 15
Location: Herefordshire, UK
Salopian
I guess you need to see this to decide if it's for you! On the link I left previously there's an option to view some of the pages from the book including the contents list.
Alternatively I'm aiming to go to the practice sporting shoot at WMSG (Hodnet) tomorrow (Tuesday) starting at 4pm. If you were able to get there I could bring my copy for you to look at .........

_________________
Clive B


"Thou cunning'st pattern of excellent nature" - Othello or was that Jimmy Muller?
The gun is simply the instrument the brain uses to achieve the result it knows you desire.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:41 am 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:00 am
Posts: 1633
Longmynd,
Thank you for your kind offer.
I have read the online version( well 44 pages).
I may be at Hodnet tomorrow, I will let you know later.
Thank you.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 8:47 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 4:31 pm
Posts: 653
Location: Ye Olde England
Quote:
I do not dispute the value you have placed upon your research, if that is what you think you are worth.


You missed the point. I wasn't valuing my time. I was pointing out what it would cost if you set about the work and had to hire in the skills and tools, which is the alternative to buying the book at whatever price I decide.

Ed Lowry didn't write a book. If you understood what he wrote in his various articles you wouldn't be disputing the single pellet story. Ed wrote something like, "Each pellet strike on a clay pigeon can be treated as an independent event". If you want to understand what Ed meant, then my book describes the mechanisms at play in a manner you will have more chance (but no guarantee of course) of understanding.

Oberfell & Thompson are now completely discredited. Brindle explained why about 20 years ago but it was heavy on the maths. I explain why in words and pictures that will give you more chance of understanding why.

Similarly, unless you are hot on maths (and French) you won't make much of Journee.

I doubt many people could understand the papers by Giblin et al (me included for the most part) so what use are they?

What I don't understand is, why people such as yourself who consider themselves experts are delaying. If you want to be considered an expert you need to bite the bullet and keep abreast of things. If the book is rubbish you could be at the vanguard saying so. Let's face it, you bought O&T and that's complete rot.

I also struggle to see why reviews in the UK should be valued more highly than ones from the US. A shotgun doesn't know which country it is in.

Andrew.

_________________
Work is the curse of the drinking classes.

Sporting Shotgun Performance: http://www.shotgun-insight.com/books.html
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:14 am 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:00 am
Posts: 1633
Dr. Jones,
I have never said or implied that I am an expert in ballistics. What I have asked is what use is your book.
I have read many works by many authors and I believe that I do understand for the most part the research carried out by Giblin / Compton, in fact I distinctly remember guiding you towards their writings some years ago.
What I have not seen is anything useful by yourself, and you have failed to give guidance.
You struggle to see why a review in the UK is of any use. Why not? Surely there is a market in the UK.
Why is your book so elusive to find in the UK and yet so well promoted in the United States?
Why is your book not readily available to buy at Braintree shooting ground or any of the others that helped you with your research, surely they would see your book as advertising material.
Where am I disputing the single pellet theory? What I said was we use multi-pellet loads what use is the single pellet theory? Explain please.
The BASC have a research department devoted to shotgun and cartridge research, have you supplied them with a copy of your book?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 6:10 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 4:31 pm
Posts: 653
Location: Ye Olde England
salopian, I do recall the Giblin lead. It was a dead link as I recall. Anyway, I had already paid for the download and I don't recall it being useful. I only write this to make clear I am aware of Giblin et al, it's not some hitherto unknown mine of information to me.

The book has been available equally in the US and UK from day one. There's no conspiracy. Bruce Buck gave me some advice years ago and he was one of the few useful leads early on when I was researching the software so he was an obvious choice to review the book. I can't think of anybody in the UK (or US for that matter) who writes in the popular magazines and has the same level of understanding. That written, even he was generous enough to say he had learnt from it.

The internet avenues are US dominated because the websites are US and the large shooting populace of the US. I use TS.com mainly because of the contributions of Neil Winston, and I use SGW because it is generally civilised - and has been since the early days. Also, there is a profound aggregate cultural difference between Americans and Brits when it comes to new things. They are more likely to give things a go even if only out of curiosity. You might like to be disparaging and say this is because they have more money but I see it more as the "can do" attitude that is a trait throughout business at large.

The book is "print on demand" (PoD). There's no stock. You may not realise this, but most of the traditional book sellers demand ~60-70% of the cover price for their margins. That doesn't leave much after print costs for the poor sap who actually wrote the book. PoD is the only way low volume books have a chance.

As for usefulness and guidance, there have been several threads here on SGW, for example, on this same page:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=265777&p=2264360#p2264360 (and follow the subsequent links).

To my knowledge, nobody previously has ever been able to define the benefits of higher muzzle velocites. In fact, the common advice is lower velocity for better patterns and downrange energies are so similar why bother with the higher recoil. What I showed is higher velocity doesn't desgrade patterns and higher energy increases the chance of a break. You might be able to use this to you advantage.

The main benefit of the book I think, is that it makes everything clearer - so long as you can understand it of course. I can dismiss most of what I read or hear as both unfounded and nonsense and my shooting life is now much simpler without any temptation from the latest marketing twist. Shooting too becomes much simpler. I have tight chokes and open chokes. The choice is only "tight" or "open". Because I know the effect of all the choke increments, I know I don't have to worry beyond being "broadly right" to give broadly the best chance of hitting the target. Most targets fall readilly into "tight" or "open". People who use 1/4 and 1/2 . . . there's almost no difference so why have two things that are different but the near enough the same. How many trap guns have had an 1/8th of a choke taken out? If the owners understood how guns work they would never have done this. You see a lot of pet chokes constrictions, for example 36-thou is common in the US. That's implied precision that simply isn't there. "Tight", where tight means about 40-thou would do.

Really, you either want to know or you don't. And even if you do want to know, the book is still heavy going for many people. An engineering background and an open mind make the reading easy. One of them alone will get you through most of it with some effort. Lack both of those and you won't like it.

Andrew.

_________________
Work is the curse of the drinking classes.

Sporting Shotgun Performance: http://www.shotgun-insight.com/books.html
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:42 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 16, 2004 7:27 am
Posts: 91
Location: SW WY
DR. Jones - thank you for your time and efforts. There is no other book like this one. I do't care what it is printed on as long as it is well written and accurate.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:03 am 
Field Grade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:50 am
Posts: 93
Location: south New Hampshire
Dr. Jones

Did you investigate overbored barrels?

_________________
The older I get, the better I was.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 4:50 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 4:31 pm
Posts: 653
Location: Ye Olde England
Doug, The tests included a Miroku MK38, which has Browning's Backbored barrels. The patterns (in a statistical sense) were no different to those from guns slightly less than nominal. In statistics parlance, the tests provided no data to support the case that overbored barrels give better patterns.

Someone in the US sent me three patterns from his Baker BigBore (.750" as I recall); the results were unbelievable in that they were near identical to those from my slightly less than nominal gun. The measured aspects of his and my patterns were so close you'd be inclined to call foul.

I also know that someone else is doing (or has done) lots of tests on different over sized bores and the results will be published soon . . . . or maybe in a couple of years.

Andrew.

_________________
Work is the curse of the drinking classes.

Sporting Shotgun Performance: http://www.shotgun-insight.com/books.html
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 3:24 pm 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2004 10:00 am
Posts: 1633
Andrew,
There was an article recently in Clay Shooting UK ( December 2011?) where they tested Eley's with a nominal 12 & an overbored ( Miroku?) one, the velocity and other tables shown were practically identical with no perceptable differences.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:32 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Wed Apr 14, 2004 4:31 pm
Posts: 653
Location: Ye Olde England
I may have seen that - there was a follow-up if I recall and included felt recoil? To be honest, most of the magazine tests are so flawed I tend not to pay attention. Neil Winston did a lot of chrono work showing how variable each make and type of shell is over time and batches:

http://www.claytargettesting.com/

. .. . . it makes clear just how effort is needed to make sense of shotshell velocities.

Over the years several people (including Neil) have shared their backbore velocity data, and the most one can say is that sometimes the velocity effect goes up, sometimes down. To be useful, articles like the one you cite need to show how the guns perform across a range of shells and a range of operating conditions, for example temperature. I raise this latter point because I had a backbored gun that didn't light-off some shells and in the US where they have really cold weather, backboring again can become a liability.

Andrew.

_________________
Work is the curse of the drinking classes.

Sporting Shotgun Performance: http://www.shotgun-insight.com/books.html
Image


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2012 3:50 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*

Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2011 4:48 pm
Posts: 94
GREAT BOOK............................very technical.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: The Most Comprehensive Shotgun Performance Book Ever!
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:45 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:14 pm
Posts: 1053
Shotgun performance/ballistics is important up to a point. Understanding where to put your patterm relative to the target IMO is more important and with competitive shotgunning, this is what counts The Unit Lead Method. 27 Masterclass shooters last year including the league champion here at Elmfork in Dallas with an average of 93%. :wink:

Pete Blakeley


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 78 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: 100topshot, aavp7a1, albanygun, Archametes, BackTo16Gauge, beach004, beasty, Bing [Bot], BOB_HARWELL, btomlin, Bwanar, Cantey, cbjfan75, Cerberus, cookoff013, dcblvsh2, dlh711, Drew Hause, dubob, Ed Blake, Eddav72, Eriehunter, Ga. Skeet, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], gunsnrods, hopper810, Horsedoc67, hunter5567, idsktshtr, JacksBack, Jaspo01, Jim Miller, KRIEGHOFFK80, lossking, M12Gunboy, mactownbob, MNNavy, mountain4don, myrickjim, nanuk, Old_Painless, oldtechshooter, OPinOKC, phil0411, Plain, rherf, roche1982, rodfly, sedae, sera, Shootin25, Shootingfool, sigep1967, Sikiguya, Steve_Guelph, StevenZ, stripersonfly, talbtimber, timf23, Trapper458, uplandbird, Volcano, wgdii, Wild Skies, wildlew, Xftrplt, Yahoo [Bot], yetibeer, ysr_racer


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group     -  DMCA Notice