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 Post subject: Less Lethal Ammo
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 6:53 am 
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I was curious about the various Less Lethal loads available and was about to ask a question regarding having them as the first load. Then I saw this story on http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com, which made perfect sense.

Self-Defense Tip: Don’t Shoot Less-Lethal Rounds
August 22, 2012

Loads of armed Americans load-up their home defense shotgun with less-lethal buckshot. More than a few owners of the shotshell firing Taurus Judge and Smith & Wesson Governor revolvers do likewise—at least for the first chamber or two. Wrong answer. There’s only one reason to shoot someone: if they pose a credible, imminent threat of death or grievous bodily harm to you or another innocent life. If it’s do or die, you want to stop a threat as quickly, efficiently and completely as possible. Shooting a bad guy with less lethal rounds (or aiming lethal rounds at extremities) to “just wound” an attacker is a dangerously naive plan. Actually, it’s so stupid it’s not really a plan at all . . .

Gun enthusiasts have a standard slam against people carrying small rounds (e.g. .22 caliber) for self-defense: “It’ll just make them angry.” While I don’t suffer from bullet envy—much—it’s no joke, really. There’s nothing makes a homicidal attacker really homicidal like getting shot.

Even if you shoot a perp straight through the heart with a fairly large caliber honest-to-God bullet it can take as much as 30 seconds for them to “bleed out.” Your average bad guy can do a lot of damage, including murder, in that time. Why give them the chance?

Again, you’re not shooting to kill. You’re shooting to stop a deadly threat and, thus, make it possible to GTFO. Wherever possible. A beanbag round ain’t gonna get it done. Not reliably. In fact, one wonders why anyone would even own a beanbag round, never mind confuse it with “proper” shotgun ammo.

There is a potential exception: a TASER. Shoot a bad guy with a TASER and he’s going down. Unless you miss. Or the barbs don’t make it through a heavy jacket. Or you don’t have your slimline C2 in situ or immediate access to the bulkier but more badass X26C or M26c.

Of course, a TASER creates a temporary pause in the action. After the effect wears off, what then? The company readily admits that their ECD units are no substitute for a “proper” firearm.

By the same token, less-lethal rounds are no substitute for lethal rounds. If you use a gun for self-defense, don’t use it until you are within your legal right to do so. If you are, when you do, make it count. The life you save may be your own.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/08/robert-farago/self-defense-tip-dont-shoot-less-lethal-rounds/

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 Post subject: Re: Less Lethal Ammo
PostPosted: Thu Sep 26, 2013 8:51 pm 
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Location: Newton Kansas
Leave "less than lethal" ammo to cops and GI's for Riot Control.


If for some unfortunate reason you find yourself sufficiently "concerned" for your life of the life of someone else, use lethal force, and use it unabashedly, and use it thoroughly (but not to excess, a former pharmacist went to prison for a Coup-de-Gras here).

If you cannot do that, don't pick up the gun in the first place, it will probably get you killed.

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 Post subject: Re: Less Lethal Ammo
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:45 pm 
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Quote:
Leave "less than lethal" ammo to cops and GI's for Riot Control.

+1
I have logic, common sense, and big dogs to ward off less-than-lethal confrontations.
Beyond that LE-132-00-buck will defend my threatened family bacon.

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 Post subject: Re: Less Lethal Ammo
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:44 pm 
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HDKorp wrote:
...Loads of armed Americans load-up their home defense shotgun with less-lethal buckshot.


I completely disagree with the article; less-lethal buckshot is HARDER to locate, less reliable in any semi-auto platform, Expen$ive, and could seriously kill someone if used incorrectly by the shooter.

If you wanted to use less-lethal buckshot, just grab a paintball or airsoft gun to delay your ultimate demise

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 Post subject: Re: Less Lethal Ammo
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:21 pm 
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Good article. I don't know how many times I've seen the same points against less-lethal ammo made here, as well as having to explain the same to people thinking it would be a good idea to use for the same reason.

I have to disagree with the article as Vertigofirearms does:
Quote:
Loads of armed Americans load-up their home defense shotgun with less-lethal buckshot.

Where do they get this generalization from?

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 Post subject: Re: Less Lethal Ammo
PostPosted: Tue Oct 01, 2013 8:46 pm 
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Less-than-lethal ammo is for cops doing riot control. Unless you're house is being burglarized by a rowdy gang of drunken frat boys celebrating their latest football win, the sh*t has no business in a home defense weapon. I for one would welcome them in, not shoot them.


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 Post subject: Re: Less Lethal Ammo
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 4:36 pm 
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If lethal force isn't required, a shotgun is not the right tool.


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 Post subject: Re: Less Lethal Ammo
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:56 pm 
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It's a shame you can't get the Tazer Shotgun Shells anymore (no longer made).

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 Post subject: Re: Less Lethal Ammo
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:13 pm 
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I substitute 3" 00 buckshot when I don't have anymore 31/2" 00 buckshot left to shoot if anyone ever threatens my safety or the safety of those around me. This is as less-lethal as I am going to get. I submit that the 3" 00 buckshot is most likely just as effective as 31/2 00 buckshot. Case closed.


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 Post subject: Re: Less Lethal Ammo
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:49 pm 
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Why 3-1/2", or to that effect, why 3"?

Much slower follow up shots, fewer rounds in the tube, and there isn't any type of Flight Control or Versatite 3-1/2" shells. 2-3/4" #00 with a Flight Control or Versatite wad is where it's at (even a low recoil variant).

Sent from my LG P-930; CM 10.2 nightly builds.


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 Post subject: Re: Less Lethal Ammo
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 11:03 pm 
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Very simple, if you didn't need to use lethal force then you didn't need to use the weapon. Dosent matter what it's loaded with it will still be considered lethal force. If you really needed to use lethal force would you really want to be loaded with "less than lethal"?

All the arguments about what caliber or gauge or size to use is just noise, within reason you use what you are comfortable with and use it well and practice often. I used to get kidded because I carried a little heavier hardware than the normal patrol officer, I also had a bit different training. But when the gooey stuff hit the oscillating blades I was usually the first one who got the call.

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Last edited by Wing_Shoot on Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:09 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Less Lethal Ammo
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:15 am 
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Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2012 2:51 pm
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Less lethal isn't just for riot control, but use against an individual falls within some very narrow parameters, and at least where I was, lethal cover was required when officers used less lethal ammo. Less lethal was not mixed with lethal ammo in any way (beanbag followed by buck/slug, etc).

As Wing Shoot says, you had better be justified in using lethal force if you kill somebody with less lethal ammo or manslaughter charges can be forthcoming.

The other question is, what if it works as advertised? What do you plan to do with a bad guy on the deck and still near a weapon? Even when it worked as advertised, a struggle always followed to get the person in custody.


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 Post subject: Re: Less Lethal Ammo
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:20 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:30 pm
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Hambo hit the issue for me. Will it work as advertised?


I'd say some tests need to be done and results put out there for me to be confident in its use. I DO like the idea of not having to kill another human being and the possible trial afterwards.


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 Post subject: Re: Less Lethal Ammo
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:46 pm 
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xstuntman wrote:
Hambo hit the issue for me. Will it work as advertised?


I'd say some tests need to be done and results put out there for me to be confident in its use. I DO like the idea of not having to kill another human being and the possible trial afterwards.


Check your state laws. In some states it is illegal to use lethal force to injure or maim on purpose. In other words if you use lethal force, even if it is "less", you need to be authorized under the law and be applied in a lethal manner. The trial you speak of. Them things only happen when you break a law. If you use legal lethal force there will not be a trial. Thats like getting a speeding ticket for doing 20 in a 25. Your thinking there is going to be a trial displays you know little about your local laws. Do not rely on luck, do not rely on the interweb and for the love of your liberty and freedom do not rely on this forum to teach you your local laws. I keep hard copies at home, in the car and in the saddle bags on the bike on top of knowing them.

Good luck at your trial.


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 Post subject: Re: Less Lethal Ammo
PostPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2013 12:11 pm 
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I have been taught from before I can remember Don'tpoint a gun at anything you are not willing to kill/destroy period no exceptions Pointing a toy gun at a person brought a A-- whippin
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 Post subject: Re: Less Lethal Ammo
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 12:22 am 
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Guys, the manufacturers of this so called "home-defense less lethal buckshot/rubber/bean-bag" are marketing this junk to the gullible pockets of us civilians and mall-ninjas. They figured: "....If we put home-defense on our products, it must sell!!!!!!"

Ever heard of Beretta's LTLX7000? It was built to address the issue of distance perception of using non-/less-lethal munitions. IF YOU USE THESE TYPES OF MUNITIONS INDOORS, YOU WILL PROABLY KILL YOUR TARGET. Leave it to the Corrections facility and Riot control personel who have the proper training and needs for these types of munitions!

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 Post subject: Re: Less Lethal Ammo
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:22 am 
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Hadn't heard of the LTLX7000.............. kinda neat........... niche-use,, and I'm not in that niche.


One thing troubles me in the "sighting/range estimation system"...............

A snippet:
The distance is set by moving two red dots in the scope until the bottom dot is at the feet of the target and the top dot it at the top of the head of the target.


This sounds "manual adjustment" to me, like fiddling with a scope's Bullet Drop Compensator, only worse.
Easy, if you have time at a stationary target......... or very slow moving target.

On a target that is changing it's range relative to the shooter quickly, the shooter is screwed.

If you don't make the "range correction" on it's scope, then it does not adjust projectile velocity, so it becomes no different than any other LTL gun/projectile.

Overly complex severely hampering it's usefulness until such time as a self-adjusting system tied to a laser rangefinder gets put in (then the gun costs an extra $10,000 and no-one but mil. can afford it lol)

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 Post subject: Re: Less Lethal Ammo
PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 6:37 am 
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xstuntman wrote:
I DO like the idea of not having to kill another human being and the possible trial afterwards.

I doubt that anyone here doesn't like this happy little ideal of not having to kill anyone (the 2% of sociopaths in the population don't much care one way or another but most of them don't want the hassle), but that is all it is, a fairly unrealistic ideal.

Unless you were pretty foolish in what you do, it was the other person who put you in the situation of you being so threatened of your life that you have to use deadly force to protect yourself.
The home invasion burglar/rapist/serial killer (took us 20 years to find BTK), the carjacker, the mugger who won't leave a witness, armed robber, nutball in the theatre, whomever it is/was/will be, is the one who created the situation you just got stuck with.
It wasn't your idea, or fault, but you get to deal with it.
Excrement Occurs sometimes, like it or not.

At this point, it is you, or them, which of you sees sunset tonight, or sunrise tomorrow.

I intend it to be me, kinda selfish I know, but it is what it is.

If you THINK you MAY have to use a firearm for this purpose, you'd better settle all your problems with killing the bad guy BEFORE the bad guy shows up, or you may freeze up and wind up cooling to ambient because you defaulted to choosing "him/her" instead of "me".

Colonel Grossman is a very good read.

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