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 Post subject: It's funny how techniques bleed into each other
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 12:11 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 16, 2019 2:58 pm
Posts: 82
I read a lot on this site, and have also listened to every episode of BTB podcast. I have also taken professional lessons and read multiple books on SC. When I first got into the game I remember hearing Kevin Demichiel describe his style as pull away, and then stating, "sometimes it's pull away from the back edge." This is exactly what I do with slow targets, synch with them, match their speed, and then swing through them from behind, otherwise I was missing miles in front. Is this pure swing through or pull away? I have no idea. Then I remember reading something about Anthony, stating that on really long crossers, he inserts the gun way in front, matches the speed, and then pulls away. Almost seems like a combination of maintained lead and pull away. I'm not sure what my exact point is here, other than it's interesting that sometimes it seems the three major styles of swing through, pull away, and maintained can be hybridized to a certain extent. And intercept, I still have no idea what that is :roll: . Thanks everyone for the information you share here.




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 Post subject: Re: It's funny how techniques bleed into each other
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 9:25 am 
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You just need to get in front of the target , and not too far.

Only doing it will allow you to learn how to do it. I went to a skeet field , got on Station 4 and learned how to get in front of that target every way possible. Swing thru , Maintained and pull away. And off-shoots of those three.

Today , I mostly start in front of the target and pull away gently .

Also do not fight a bad move. Don't try to micro-adjust your bad move. Do something different.

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 Post subject: Re: It's funny how techniques bleed into each other
PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:34 am 
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Good observation.

Maintained: Insert to proper lead and maintain it. Problem is *most* shooters I see do a micro adjustment at least before triggering --and often a more significant adjustment-- and this adjustment can turn the shot into a diminishing or pull-away move -- hence I always call it "adjusted lead" when one has to "wiggle" the lead before triggering. I admit to being a wiggler, so always call it adjusted lead when using it. I use it most on big window medium crossers, arching teal and chandelles.

Diminishing: Start way in front and let the target collapse toward the muzzle. Issue here is *most* shooters need to speed their gun up a tad to synch with the target, so at the very end at least it is more a maintained lead. Just as often it can adopt the micro adjustments and end as the adjusted move described above. FWIW I use this frequently on long crossers and longer deep and fast quartering, but reality for me there is very little difference in the way I execute maintained and diminishing other than where my HP starts...

True Pull-Away: IMHO, probably the most used move even for shooters who don't know they're doing it. Insert a little short, on the leading edge, or on the rear edge and pull forward, triggering when lead is synched. Since you're moving with the target at a controlled pace, you don't need to match speed before triggering since you've got the full pattern diameter merging along with the target. IMHO for that added "pattern merge time" it is the most forgiving of all moves and as such my default for most general targets and often my goto when I see something I have no idea how to hit.

Swing-Through: Technically speaking swing-through starts from behind the target. I think shooters that mount on the back edge and pull-away rightly consider that a modified PA move since they are controlling it as such. IMHO, most well performed S-T becomes a P-A move right before trigger anyway. The exception for me is when I use a "two-piece" move on a rising target or attack a fast, short crosser -- here the timing for trigger is probably mostly during the pure and narrow-window at the S-T phase of the move with no time to slow to P-A or adjust and synch.

Intercept or "cut-off": Not one of my tactics, so I don't have much to say about it. If I ever do it, it's probably done more as a S-T anyway. But I respect others that claim they use it successfully.

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 Post subject: Re: It's funny how techniques bleed into each other
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 7:29 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Feb 10, 2017 10:34 am
Posts: 170
JacksBack wrote:
Good observation.

Maintained: Insert to proper lead and maintain it. Problem is *most* shooters I see do a micro adjustment at least before triggering --and often a more significant adjustment-- and this adjustment can turn the shot into a diminishing or pull-away move -- hence I always call it "adjusted lead" when one has to "wiggle" the lead before triggering. I admit to being a wiggler, so always call it adjusted lead when using it. I use it most on big window medium crossers, arching teal and chandelles.

Diminishing: Start way in front and let the target collapse toward the muzzle. Issue here is *most* shooters need to speed their gun up a tad to synch with the target, so at the very end at least it is more a maintained lead. Just as often it can adopt the micro adjustments and end as the adjusted move described above. FWIW I use this frequently on long crossers and longer deep and fast quartering, but reality for me there is very little difference in the way I execute maintained and diminishing other than where my HP starts...

True Pull-Away: IMHO, probably the most used move even for shooters who don't know they're doing it. Insert a little short, on the leading edge, or on the rear edge and pull forward, triggering when lead is synched. Since you're moving with the target at a controlled pace, you don't need to match speed before triggering since you've got the full pattern diameter merging along with the target. IMHO for that added "pattern merge time" it is the most forgiving of all moves and as such my default for most general targets and often my goto when I see something I have no idea how to hit.

Swing-Through: Technically speaking swing-through starts from behind the target. I think shooters that mount on the back edge and pull-away rightly consider that a modified PA move since they are controlling it as such. IMHO, most well performed S-T becomes a P-A move right before trigger anyway. The exception for me is when I use a "two-piece" move on a rising target or attack a fast, short crosser -- here the timing for trigger is probably mostly during the pure and narrow-window at the S-T phase of the move with no time to slow to P-A or adjust and synch.

Intercept or "cut-off": Not one of my tactics, so I don't have much to say about it. If I ever do it, it's probably done more as a S-T anyway. But I respect others that claim they use it successfully.


Thanks Jack! You explained a lot of what has taken me a long time to sort out and I'm still sorting it out. During a recent practice session, Shotkam videos show that when I thought I was using maintained lead on 30 yard crossers it was really more of the adjusted lead that you described. When I try to "smooth out" and eliminate that little adjustment at the end, I miss many times and shoot in front of the target. When I thought that I was using diminishing lead, the videos showed more of what you described as diminishing lead with maintained lead happening at the end. It's a long learning curve for a guy who started the game late in life and little ah ha moments like this help put the puzzle together.


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 Post subject: Re: It's funny how techniques bleed into each other
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:01 am 
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JacksBack wrote:
Diminishing: Start way in front and let the target collapse toward the muzzle. Issue here is *most* shooters need to speed their gun up a tad to synch with the target, so at the very end at least it is more a maintained lead.

I had a lesson with Gebben Miles a few weeks ago, and we discussed this topic. He came to the conclusion that this is what he does. I have watched "Quiet Dust Shooting" several times and brought up the subject. He said that how he described it in that video wasn't totally correct. He noticed while filming his next video and looking at some super slo-mo video, that he was actually matching speed right before the shot.
I'd say your observation here is spot on.

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 Post subject: Re: It's funny how techniques bleed into each other
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 11:49 am 
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Luke485 wrote:
Thanks Jack! You explained a lot of what has taken me a long time to sort out and I'm still sorting it out.

No problem, glad it helped somebody :)
~~~
ceh383 wrote:
I had a lesson with Gebben Miles a few weeks ago, and we discussed this topic. He came to the conclusion that this is what he does. I have watched "Quiet Dust Shooting" several times and brought up the subject. He said that how he described it in that video wasn't totally correct. He noticed while filming his next video and looking at some super slo-mo video, that he was actually matching speed right before the shot.
I'd say your observation here is spot on.

Thanks Ceh. It doesn't change the effectiveness of this move for me however, rather I think it's more about me understanding what I'm actually doing when implementing it ;)

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NSCA #617422

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 Post subject: Re: It's funny how techniques bleed into each other
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:20 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 24, 2020 2:22 pm
Posts: 176
JacksBack wrote:
Good observation.

Maintained: Insert to proper lead and maintain it. Problem is *most* shooters I see do a micro adjustment at least before triggering --and often a more significant adjustment-- and this adjustment can turn the shot into a diminishing or pull-away move -- hence I always call it "adjusted lead" when one has to "wiggle" the lead before triggering. I admit to being a wiggler, so always call it adjusted lead when using it. I use it most on big window medium crossers, arching teal and chandelles.

Diminishing: Start way in front and let the target collapse toward the muzzle. Issue here is *most* shooters need to speed their gun up a tad to synch with the target, so at the very end at least it is more a maintained lead. Just as often it can adopt the micro adjustments and end as the adjusted move described above. FWIW I use this frequently on long crossers and longer deep and fast quartering, but reality for me there is very little difference in the way I execute maintained and diminishing other than where my HP starts...

True Pull-Away: IMHO, probably the most used move even for shooters who don't know they're doing it. Insert a little short, on the leading edge, or on the rear edge and pull forward, triggering when lead is synched. Since you're moving with the target at a controlled pace, you don't need to match speed before triggering since you've got the full pattern diameter merging along with the target. IMHO for that added "pattern merge time" it is the most forgiving of all moves and as such my default for most general targets and often my goto when I see something I have no idea how to hit.

Swing-Through: Technically speaking swing-through starts from behind the target. I think shooters that mount on the back edge and pull-away rightly consider that a modified PA move since they are controlling it as such. IMHO, most well performed S-T becomes a P-A move right before trigger anyway. The exception for me is when I use a "two-piece" move on a rising target or attack a fast, short crosser -- here the timing for trigger is probably mostly during the pure and narrow-window at the S-T phase of the move with no time to slow to P-A or adjust and synch.

Intercept or "cut-off": Not one of my tactics, so I don't have much to say about it. If I ever do it, it's probably done more as a S-T anyway. But I respect others that claim they use it successfully.

Very nice summary. Thanks.

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 Post subject: Re: It's funny how techniques bleed into each other
PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:40 pm 
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JacksBack wrote:
Thanks Ceh. It doesn't change the effectiveness of this move for me however, rather I think it's more about me understanding what I'm actually doing when implementing it ;)

You're welcome!
I wouldn't expect it to change anything. It just shows that even top shooters may think they are doing something, when in fact, they are doing something slightly different.
I don't use this method very often, but when I do, I couldn't tell you if I'm matching speed at the end or not...I'm too busy looking at the target :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: It's funny how techniques bleed into each other
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2020 9:19 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:25 pm
Posts: 2228
Location: Attica, Mi
I agree with Jack except the swing through to me is watching a old time skeet shooter put his muzzle on the house, call for a bird, and then because the bird is so far in front of the gun he just blows through the bird and from experience knows when to pull the trigger. Maybe that's what you said, I just didn't quite catch what you were saying. There's also the intercept method. As you mount the gun you just point it at a spot in front of the bird you think it's going to and want the bird and shot to intercept each other. At least that's the way I take intercept method to be. Correct me if I'm wrong.



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