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 Post subject: Federal 12C1 wad with Win AA Hulls?
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 12:06 am 
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Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:55 pm
Posts: 20
Got my Mec Sizemaster today. The guy at the shop set me up with some Clays powder, Win 209 primers, #7 1/2 shot, and some Claybuster CB 3118-12AR (Federal 12C1 replacement wads). Guy at the gun shop said these components would work, but I think he was partially persuaded by the fact that I told him last week when I ordered the Mec that I wanted to order the components at the same time to make sure I had a working setup, and he promised everything but the Mec was in stock.

The Mec shipped with a 1 1/8 oz charge bar.

So I'm looking for recipes on the web for my Win AA hulls and it looks to me like a dead end.

The wads look similar on Claybusers website to the Remington Fig 8 and I can find a recipe to use the fig 8 on Hodgden's site, but it seems like if they were the same they would have the same part number.

I also have some Remington "Sport Load" hulls if they are more compatible.

So do I have something workable here, or am I going to have to get some different wads?

Thanks for helping a noob!


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 Post subject: Re: Federal 12C1 wad with Win AA Hulls?
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 1:17 am 
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Turtlendog, congratulations on stepping into one of the best hobbies anyone who enjoys shooting can do. After you get your feet wet a little you'll find this almost as much fun as shooting.

Your components are fine but I question the combination your dealer sold to you.
Sizemaster - Very good reloading press. It is what I use.
Hodgdon Clays Powder - Very good powder for shot shells. I have some myself but I am migrating to Alliant powders exclusively. Nothing wrong with Hodgdon, I just perfer Alliant.
Win 209 Primers - One of the most versatile available. Many, many people, including me, use them. The other two favorites are Remington Primere STS 209 and Federal 209A
Claybuster Wads - Clones of the OEM higher priced wads. I use clones almost exclusively and probably 80% of my wads are Claybusters.
Winchester AA Hulls - One of the most popular hulls on the market.

Now mix all of them up with a shot load of 1 1/8 oz and you are correct. There aren't many recipes available. Here is a link to the load data from Hodgdon.
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/shotshel/12win118.php

It appears to me that you would have been better served with Winchester WAA12 wads or a clone of the WAA12. If you wish to use your Clays powder for this load I would recommend getting some of these wads and use the Federal 12C1 clones in another recipe at some other time.

For another option you could get a different powder. This is a link to Alliant data.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipeDetail.aspx?title=Shotshell&shotype=&weight=1.125&weightdis=1%201/8&shellid=361&gtypeid=3&gauge=12
Using either Red Dot, Green Dot, or American Select powder you could use all of the other components. You could then keep your Clays powder for use later on.

Were I in your position I would get a pound of Green Dot or American Select and keep the Clays for later.

Also, as you continue your experience in reloading you'll find that most of us 12 ga shooters load at 1 oz and 7/8 oz. All you need for that is a different MEC charge bar, some bushings and different wads for the same hulls, powder, and primers.

Dan

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 Post subject: Re: Federal 12C1 wad with Win AA Hulls?
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 11:24 am 
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I looked a little further this morning into using your Clays powder. I knew there was a 1 oz and 7/8 oz load that I really liked. I'm not sure what the Remington "Sport Load" hulls that you have are however, just about all Remington hulls of recent manufactuer are the same hull regardless what color they are or what is printed on the outside. Here is a link to the Hodgdon load data. http://www.hodgdon.com/data/shotshel/12rem781-01.php

I like the Claybuster 4100-12 (Windjammer Lightning clone) with Clays in either 1 oz or 7/8 oz in a Remington Hull. I used the 7/8 oz load in my Winchester Select Energy O/U for skeet. I load 1 oz for wife's Remington 1100. The 7/8 oz seems a little low on pressure to cycle her semi auto. She shoots primarily Trap so a 1 oz seems to fit her needs better. To load these you would need a 1 oz and/or 7/8 oz charge bar and maybe some bushings for your Sizemaster. Probably $20-$25 for the bar, bushings and a bag of wads.

Using 1 oz in your Win AA hulls with Clays powder you would probably be best served with a Winchester WAA12SL wad. The WAA12SL wads would work well in your AA hulls too. I usually substitute a Claybuster 1100-12 clone for the WAA12SL. This is a very good load that I have used for all types of Clay sports.

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 Post subject: Re: Federal 12C1 wad with Win AA Hulls?
PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2006 11:45 am 
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Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:55 pm
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Dan

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I hadn't noticed that the 12C1 wads were in a recipe with Win AA hulls and Alliant powder.

I agree about the lighter loads, in fact one the major considerations in reloading was the desire to try some lighter loads. I just wanted to try to gain some experience while waiting for the lighter charge-bars and bushings to come in.


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 Post subject: Re: Federal 12C1 wad with Win AA Hulls?
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2006 2:16 am 
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I would not attempt to load the 12C1 clone in the Win AA hull if the hulls are the new AA hulls that have the powder cup. The 12C1 is designed for the straight walled Federal hull. These would be better used in Federal Gold Medal, Top Gun, Estate or other straight walled hulls.

I would get either Rem Fig 8 or Win WAA12 wads and start loading in the Remington hulls. The new Win AA hulls that have the separate powder cup can cause the wad to hang up. Also unless the loader is set up right you will get a lot of hulls buckling just above the brass. Once you get the feel of loading, then you should try loading the new Win AA. Be aware that the possibility of the base cup/wad dislodging and lodging in you barrel is there. So when you reload the new Win AA hulls get into the habit of looking down your barrel after every shot.

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 Post subject: Re: Federal 12C1 wad with Win AA Hulls?
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2006 2:42 am 
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Waverider

Thanks so much for adding to this thread! I had indeed gone with the Green Dot powder and tried out the published Alliant recipe using the 12C1 (clone) with newer AA hulls. I was trying to figure out why the hulls were bulging near the base of the wad, but now it's obvious!

I guess the recipe in question is for the older style AA hull. Thanks so much for pointing that out!

I'll take your advice and make sure that my barrels are clear after firing too.


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 Post subject: Re: Federal 12C1 wad with Win AA Hulls?
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2006 12:07 pm 
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Good to know stuff here. I was unaware that the Fed 12C1 was not compatible with the new Win AA-HS. I knew the Fed wads were for a straight walled hull but I didn't know about making the new AA-HS bulge or dislodge the powder cup. Is this true with the other Federal wads in AA-HS hulls? I have used the Fed 12S0 wads in the old style AA hulls without problems but have not tried them in the AA-HS. Turtle if I lead you astray somewhat it is because I would have done the same thing myself. With the rounds you have already loaded that bulge at the bottom make sure they fit into your gun before you go to the range to shoot them. It wouldn't be very pleasant to arrive ready to shoot and your shells won't fit.

Dan

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 Post subject: Re: Federal 12C1 wad with Win AA Hulls?
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2006 12:18 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 5:55 pm
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DanAKAL wrote:
Turtle if I lead you astray somewhat it is because I would have done the same thing myself.


Dan

No sweat, you pointed me to a published load and I (alone) chose to try it. I still think you gave me good insight. Using the 1 1/8 oz stuff until my 7/8 and 1oz charge bars come is purely for learning and I'm learning!

FWIW Alliant also publishes a similar load with Remington hulls, and they work much better with that wad.


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 Post subject: Re: Federal 12C1 wad with Win AA Hulls?
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2006 6:00 pm 
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Glad to hear things are working better for you with the Remington Hulls and the Fed 12C1 wad.

When you get your 1 oz and 7/8 oz loading equipment try some Claybuster 1100-12 wads (WAA12SL clones) These have been my preferred 1 oz wads in Remington and Winchester hulls with Win 209 or Rem 209P primers. (Haven't tried any Win AA-HS hulls yet though.) Your Green Dot and Clays will work well with this mix at 1 oz. The Hodgdon data doesn't specify a CB 1100-12 but I have loaded using WAA12SL data. I have even loaded these wads with 7/8 oz shot using WAA12SL data. The crimp is dished using 7/8 oz but not so much it will leave a hole in the middle of the crimp.

I will be moving to 7/8 oz and I have three wads that I will be testing and taking to the pattern board.
CB 0178-12 (WAA12L clone)
CB 2100-12 (Federal 12S0 clone)
CB 4100-12 (Windjammer Lightning clone)
I'll test each of these with Alliant Red Dot and Alliant e3 powder in both Remington and Winchester hulls. I'll test each through my Winchester Select Energy and wife's Remington 1100. After I make a decision between these I'll try some 3/4 oz loads. I am looking forward to trying the 3/4 oz load that Case has developed with the WAA12L clone and Alliant Promo powder. Based on my results I intend to use only one wad for both loads. I expect that wife will continue shooting the 7/8 oz load and I'll probably shoot 3/4 oz. She shoots primarily Trap and I need to maintain pressures at about 7000 psi for her automatic. I shoot primarily skeet and just enough recoil to set the second trigger is all that I need. I'll post about the results of my tests. Probably someone has already tested these but it sure will be fun to figure out what works best for me.

Dan

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 Post subject: Re: Federal 12C1 wad with Win AA Hulls?
PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2006 10:29 pm 
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As was said, either in old AA's or Remington hulls but don't bother with the HS hulls.

That said, the Claybuster clone isn't even close to a real 12C1 wad, close being within .080" of measurements, how they could refer to it as a clone is beyond me. :roll:

What they will do is work better in a tapered hull, than a 12C1. The original Fed wad had an almost rigid red plastic overpowder insert, even with a bulky powder they would ridge any tapered hull-----though there were several recipes adopted to that package. Best performing (pellet count) wad I ever used, the 12C1.

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