CalendarCalendar   Photos  * FAQ
It is currently Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:07 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Image



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: NON-lethal ammo alternatives
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 8:36 pm 
Utility Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:22 am
Posts: 17
Location: arizona
i tried a search and did not see anything related to my question, and i decided to post it here in the tactical section because as far as the military/law enforcement tactical stuff goes they seem to have alot of alternatives in their ammo....

which leads me to my question. i have seen some rubber buck-shot, some rubber slug/ball, but not very much and i've yet to see any bean-bag type ammo. it would seem most of this is geared towards law enforcement, but not your average everyday pee on :D

i realize for these types of ammo to be effective theres training and or you would want to atleast practice with it to use it properly, i guess i'm just curious as to whyit doesn't seem to be more of an alternative for us "regular folks"...?? you would think they would rather people attempt at using something non lethal but......any comments?

_________________
"it's not the left, it's not the right, it's both of them!"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: NON-lethal ammo alternatives
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:31 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:21 am
Posts: 2812
timewarped1972 wrote:
i guess i'm just curious as to whyit doesn't seem to be more of an alternative for us "regular folks"...?? you would think they would rather people attempt at using something non lethal but......any comments?

beanbags are readily available as are just about every other less lethal load ranging from the trash firequest sells up to 37/40mm wooden baton and rubber loads (you better have a tax stamp if you plan on using anti-personnel ammunition in your 37mm!)


but why don't people use them?


1. liability

2. because it is lethal... especially at the ranges encountered within most people's homes. a rubber slug, beanbag or load of rubber buckshot can easily cause enough trauma to kill a person.

3. why? seriously, if someone might be trying to harm you, why limit yourself to a load that may not effectively stop them. a thug hopped on on PCP might be dropped by a beanbag, or he might not. why take the risk?

just stick to what is effective and already proven - buckshot. i keep lots of #4 and 00 on hand.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:49 pm 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:29 pm
Posts: 920
Location: Toronto, Canada
I think that an effective non-lethal alternative would be to simply dress up in this suit...

Image

...and charge at the intruder while giggling maniacly.

Heck, the higher the guy is on drugs, the faster he'll run in the opposite direction.

_________________
- Terry.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: re: NON-lethal ammo alternatives
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:32 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2006 11:06 am
Posts: 350
Location: Minnesooota Eh
if you really want bean bags you can get em at ammoman...

They are very expensive and will probably kill a guy as easily in your home as buck shot figuring a 10-15 foot range.

http://ammoman.com/index.htm

_________________
I like my eggs like I like my elephants. Poached.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: re: NON-lethal ammo alternatives
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:42 pm 
Utility Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2007 2:22 am
Posts: 17
Location: arizona
thanks for the reply's.

i was just curious, as for why anyone would ever consider something less than lethal, well liability anymore has become an issue in some cases and also i suppose there would be an occasional situation where you may need to tag someone with out killing them, i guess thats what the other goodies (tasers, etc) would be for.

_________________
"it's not the left, it's not the right, it's both of them!"


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:44 am 
Shotgun Expert
Shotgun Expert
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2002 1:31 am
Posts: 482
The reason is if you pull the trigger, regardless of if its a beanbag or buck shot you have employed deadly force by using your weapon. If your justified in using it then your justified killing them. The less lethal will get you in more trouble than buck because unless your police you can only fire the gun to prevent death or serious injury etc. Its alot harder to prove you were in fear for your life if you shoot them with a beanbag than if you went for the buckshot


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 12:55 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Sat Apr 08, 2006 9:50 am
Posts: 746
Because your not trying to "take him alive". You are tring to protect the lives of you & your loved ones. It's not an easy choice for any rational, sane adult to make.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 12:22 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2007 3:37 pm
Posts: 187
Location: South Texas
dead men cant sue you
injured men can


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: re: NON-lethal ammo alternatives
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:44 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2003 1:11 pm
Posts: 3582
Location: Vermont
They're neat and effective in a law enforcement role but would have very limited use for the average citizen.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:03 am 
Limited Edition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Dec 28, 2006 5:36 pm
Posts: 326
Location: Down by tha rivah, VA
tattooed white trash wrote:
dead men cant sue you
injured men can


Unfortunately their family still can.

_________________
Μολὼν λαβέ
Image
Liberty's Manure


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: re: NON-lethal ammo alternatives
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:34 am 
Limited Edition
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 25, 2007 4:32 pm
Posts: 440
Location: Milladore, WI (POP ~250)
Greetings!

As I noted in another post, I live in Wisconsin. Even if the zombie breaks into your home and is armed, if you shoot him you are most likely going to jail. As the DA holds up my Mossy 590A1 "Assault Weapon" in a damning manner, I can say that, by using less lethal ammunition (bean bags, rubber slug, rubber buck,etc.) my intention was to STOP, and NOT to kill. (Note: almost ALL of the "less lethal" ammunition will kill at the ranges most likely encountered inside your home.) :wink: I have a bean bag loaded up first, followed by a rubber slug and 00 Buck in the rest of the mag tube. If round one doesn't stop the BG, it will surely slow him down and give him a new perspective on continuing his activities in this particular location. And then there is round two, which should "smart" a bit more. If rounds one and two fail to stop him, rounds three through eight definitely will.

You can obtain quality less lethal ammunition at this link:

http://www.alslesslethal.com/12cat.htm

Good luck, and may you NEVER need to use any kind of ammunition - less lethal; or the other kind (MORE lethal) to defend you home and/or family! :wink: :D ^77 :P
_________________
Indonesian Forum


Last edited by Chance on Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: re: NON-lethal ammo alternatives
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:32 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:23 am
Posts: 5920
Location: In overwatch
Chance wrote:
Greetings!

As I noted in another post, I live in Wisconsin. Even if the zombie breaks into your home and is armed, if you shoot him you are most likely going to jail. As the DA holds up my Mossy 590A1 "Assault Weapon" in a damning manner,

OK, you're worried about the DA using the appearance of your weapon, but you're not worried about the fact that according to you LTL rounds are lethal in the parameters that you intend on using them. That's a little odd. Because if you are going to say that LTL are in your opinon less lethal, you will be asked how you arrived at that judegement. If you say from your research, then the type of DA that you are fantasizing about is going to ask why your research didn't also reveal that LTL rounds are now called LTL, as opposed to their former name, non-lethal and he will explain (or more likely, have the local or state PD FI explain) that the change was made to reflect the realization that Non-Lethal is misleading, LTL is more accurate in that while they are usually less than lethal that is not always the case. Especially in the case of non-trained personel. You are then going to have to explain how your research was sufficient to convince you of the virtues of LTL rounds, but insufficient to reveal the potenial lethality.
Nevermind that the shoot is going to have to go through an entire investigative process involving police, possibly a Grand Jury, and the DA's office. You don't just automatically end up in front of a jury. And if you think this is bad, wait until the civil side catches up. There is a much lower standard fo proof, and fewer protections for you.
Quote:
I can say that, by using less lethal ammunition (bean bags, rubber slug, rubber buck,etc.) my intention was to STOP, and NOT to kill.

Yeah, you can say it, and the DA will tell you that it doesn't matter what you shot him with, discharging a firearm is deadly force. Period. Nevermind the fact that unless you have no brain function above the stem, you will have legal representation. And there is a very good chance that he is going to tell you to shut the hell up and not say a word. And I doubt very seriously that an attorney would let you say what you are contemplating even if he does allow you on the stand.
Quote:
(Note: almost ALL of the "less lethal" ammunition will kill at the ranges most likely encountered inside your home.) :wink:

Have you ever actually been trained in LTL rounds? Ever researched the effects of LTL rounds? Ever seen anybody hit with LTL rounds? From my training and witnessing the use of LTL rounds, you are misinformed. LTL rounds have been used in all sorts of scenarios at fairly close ranges without death. For that matter, "lethal" rounds are used at fairly close ranges without death. It largely depends on what you are using and where and how it hits them. You counting on the lethal effects of what is basically down-loaded ammo is not real smart. Thinking that you are going to be able to dupe the DA into believing that you had no idea that they would be lethal is even less so. In fact, you might just open yourself up to increased liability and culpability by using a round that you may have received no training in, and that only served to cause undue harm. "Since you were using LTL rounds, you clearly had no intention of stopping the attack, but simply wanted to torment the victim."
Quote:
[right] I have a bean bag loaded up first, followed by a rubber slug and 00 Buck in the rest of the mag tube. If round one doesn't stop the BG,

One round of plastic pellets? Hell, lead pellets don't always stop trolls and you're planning on plastics to work?
Quote:
it will surely slow him down

Right.
Quote:
and give him a new perspective on continuing his activities in this particular location.

And if the perspective that he obtains from hearing the much softer "pop" of a LTL round followed by the patter of airsoft BBs bouncing around your house is that you are clearly not serious about stopping him?
Quote:
And then there is round two, which should "smart" a bit more.

Assuming you have the opportunity to fire the second round. Even then, you are still looking at another LTL round.
Quote:
If rounds one and two fail to stop him, rounds three through eight definitely will.

Why stop there? As long as you are planning on things failing and you having time to adjust, why not factor in the other firearms that you could get from your safe, cabinet, closet, neighbor's house, etc? I mean, as long as your script has the bad guy not adapting to your inept use of force you could go through an entire neighborhood worth of weaponry while he stands there.
Quote:
You can obtain quality less lethal ammunition at this link:

http://www.alslesslethal.com/12cat.htm

And you can obtain sensible defensive rounds from Remington, Winchester, Federal, Brenneke, Wolf, S&B, etc.

_________________
You might find me someday dead in a ditch somewhere. But by God, you'll find me in a pile of brass.

Image
http://www.weaponevolution.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: re: NON-lethal ammo alternatives
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 1:45 pm 
Limited Edition
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 20, 2007 12:41 pm
Posts: 302
Im tired of these questions. Why have a weapon of any sort if you are going to use that kind of ammo?

How about you people that want to be "safe" just slap the bad guys?

Or better yet, why not just trade your real 12g shotgun in for a airsoft gun?

:x !!!!!!!!!!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: re: NON-lethal ammo alternatives
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:26 pm 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2006 9:23 am
Posts: 5920
Location: In overwatch
Hyper wrote:
Im tired of these questions. Why have a weapon of any sort if you are going to use that kind of ammo?

How about you people that want to be "safe" just slap the bad guys?

Or better yet, why not just trade your real 12g shotgun in for a airsoft gun?

:x !!!!!!!!!!!!

No way dude, you could put an eye out with one of those.

I am in the process of developing the tactical Nerf 2K7 PDW.
It will be molded in Pacifist Pink and have a low-capacity magazine of 3 (nobody needs more than that anyway) closed-cell foam sabots holding 12 gummi bears each. The barrel will be about 4" long so that the pattern will spread quickly and you won't even have to aim. These will be equipped with child-proof triggers and will be pump action. I thought about a semiauto, but then remembered that The Most Scariest Sound Ever is the racking of a pump. It is hoped that just hearing The Most Scariest Sound Ever will make any potential trolls run away in terror and that the weapon will not even have to be fired.
There are plans for an aftermarket lug for a HelloKitty silly string bayonet.
I've already contacted Mack from FutureWeapons for an upcomming spot on his show. Although I could barely hear him whispering on the phone, I'm pretty sure he liked the concept and he's guaranteed to refer to it as "one special weapon." We've also worked "If you get hit with this thing, it's game over" in on the HelloKitty segment.
"Nerf 2K7: When you don't care enough to put the b@$t@rd in the ground."

_________________
You might find me someday dead in a ditch somewhere. But by God, you'll find me in a pile of brass.

Image
http://www.weaponevolution.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 3:07 pm 
Presentation Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sat Feb 18, 2006 9:29 pm
Posts: 920
Location: Toronto, Canada
Hyper
Field Grade

Joined: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 48


Hyper wrote:
"...Im tired of these questions..."






...then perhaps you need to work on your stamina.

:wink:

_________________
- Terry.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: re: NON-lethal ammo alternatives
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:36 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 1:36 am
Posts: 139
My shotgun has two ends. One Lethal, one non-lethal. :wink:

g


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: re: NON-lethal ammo alternatives
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:01 pm 
Moderator
Moderator

Joined: Sat Sep 27, 2003 12:43 am
Posts: 4958
zombie wrote:
They're neat and effective in a law enforcement role but would have very limited use for the average citizen.


As I understand it, law enforcement will almost always only employ these tools in a situation where the LTL-armed officer is backed up by others armed with "greater than or equal to" lethal force. That would be the only situation I would voluntarily select a beanbag round over buckshot or a slug to shoot someone in self defense.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: re: NON-lethal ammo alternatives
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:43 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:21 am
Posts: 2812
Chance wrote:
Greetings!

As I noted in another post, I live in Wisconsin. Even if the zombie breaks into your home and is armed, if you shoot him you are most likely going to jail. As the DA holds up my Mossy 590A1 "Assault Weapon" in a damning manner, I can say that, by using less lethal ammunition (bean bags, rubber slug, rubber buck,etc.) my intention was to STOP, and NOT to kill.



DA: "you used a less lethal round which means you obviously didn't fear for your life, therefore you weren't justified in using a firearm"


oh, and just wait until the civil trial...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: re: NON-lethal ammo alternatives
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:10 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 1:36 am
Posts: 139
I measured, the longest shot in my home with my back against the wall and from the muzzle of my 870 to the farthest straight line point was just under 21ft. Most all "non-lethal" rounds will kill at that range. Good intentions or not, you're going to jail in that instance. Better plan would be to stick with the OO and aim for the legs or pelvis. :) = non-lethal attempt

g


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: re: NON-lethal ammo alternatives
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:14 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:21 am
Posts: 2812
mr.squatch wrote:
Better plan would be to stick with the OO and aim for the legs or pelvis. :) = non-lethal attempt

g
it's a better plan than using beanbags, but both are still terrible ideas :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 26 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: alex124485, Alexa [Bot], bigjedd, Bing [Bot], boondoggle, bulabula, cdb1097, Cfelix10, cookoff013, cw1234, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], Google Feedfetcher, jmaynard123188, mailman, Majestic-12 [Bot], mddan, Misery556, More Lead, MSN [Bot], MSNbot Media, NDube, tad1, tedrohedro, Travelinman301


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group     -  DMCA Notice