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 Post subject: Barrel Question
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:00 pm 
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Location: Missouri
I bought an old Iver Johnson shotgun as a project gun and to have something to work on last winter. The barrel is marked "20 Gauge Choke Bore Barrel and Lug Forged in One". Does this mean that the choke is the same as Cylinder? I can't find any other information on the gun to indicate barrel constriction. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Barrel Question
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 2:28 pm 
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papajohn wrote:
I bought an old Iver Johnson shotgun as a project gun and to have something to work on last winter. The barrel is marked "20 Gauge Choke Bore Barrel and Lug Forged in One". Does this mean that the choke is the same as Cylinder? I can't find any other information on the gun to indicate barrel constriction. Thanks.


I have also seen that type marking on other older guns and took it to mean that there was some choke, not cylinder bore, but that back then they sometimes failed to mention, just how much constriction they had put in it. It also means that, if you can take their words at face value, they did indeed "bore" the barrel and choke together, (as opposed to doing a straight cylinder bore, and then swaging down the muzzle end, the cheapest/shortcut way to get a choke constriction).

I don't think your are going to know with out measuring it. Best anyway, as after all these years who knows who has messed with, (modified), it.

Clyde


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 Post subject: re: Barrel Question
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:19 pm 
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The inscription "20 Gauge Choke Bore Barrel and Lug Forged in One" is really three separate statements.

"20 Gauge" is self explanatory.

"Choke Bore" means it has some choke in the bore. It doesn't say how much, but in guns of that era and type, if there is any choke there is probably a lot - meaning it is probably full choke.

"Barrel and Lug Forged in One" is an Iver Johnson trademark referring to the way their shotgun barrels were made. It means the locking lug on the bottom of the barrel, at the breech end, was forged and then machined as part of a single piece with the barrel itself. This is what the British have always called a "chopper lump" barrel, as opposed to a lump or lug made separately and attached to the barrel.

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 Post subject: re: Barrel Question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 9:07 am 
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Hello papajohn: IJ's came with a full choke. You'll have to measure it to see if it's been opened up. Should be about .590 +/- .005.

Second IJ single shots were made from about 1909 thru at least the 50's. If your gun has no chamber length marking, get it measured, early ones had a 2 1/2 in. chamber. (2 3/4 in shells didn't come out until the late 1920s).

Regards Dave


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 Post subject: re: Barrel Question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2007 4:33 pm 
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Thanks. It didn't occur to me that it might be chambered for a 2 1/2 " shell. I'll definitely get it measured before shooting it. Thanks again, John


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 Post subject: re: Barrel Question
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:29 pm 
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Well it measures .594 at the muzzle. I'm not sure about the bore measurement, but I suspect it is .620 which I think should make it choked at about IM. Does that sound right? I'm not sure about the chamber length. It has a serial number but I can't find much info on Iver Johnsons to indicate about when it was made. If I can drop a 2 3/4" shell in the chamber and the barrel closes easily and ejects the shell when opened, does that not necessarily mean it is chambered for 2 3/4" shells?


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 Post subject: re: Barrel Question
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:05 pm 
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Closer to full imo. A 2 3/4 inch shell measures 2 3/4 fired. Unfired it measures about 2 1/2, so a 2 3/4 inch shell will easily drop in a 2 1/2 inch chamber. Buy or borrow a gauge or have a gunsmith measure it to be sure, or you can construct a gauge out of plastic (such as a piece of milk jug) and cut it to the correct length and gauge diameter. Have fun with your project.

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 Post subject: re: Barrel Question
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:38 pm 
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I took it to a gunsmith today and he said it is chambered for 2 3/4" shells. He said Iver Johnson didn't make any 20 guage shotguns with 2 1/2 " chambers.


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 Post subject: re: Barrel Question
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:10 pm 
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Hello papajohn: Well in 1909 when Iver Johnson started selling single shot, shotguns. The 12 ga. was the only shell on the market that was 2 3/4 in. Of course at that time you could still buy 2 5/8 in. 12 ga. shells too.

Fact, 2 3/4 in. 16 & 20 ga. shells didn't come out until very late 1926 early 1927. The old lengths were 2 9/16 & 2 1/2 in. respectively.

28ga. shells were 2 1/2in. in 1937, Winchester introduced the 2 7/8 in 28ga. shell, it happened to coinside with their Md 12 and 37, 28ga. shotgun, after WWII it was standardiized to 2 3/4in.

.410 shells were originally 2 in. then 2 1/2 in. Dec. 1932/Jan. 1933 Winchester introduced the 3 in. .410 shell, which was for their Md 42 pum.

So do you really think that if your gun was made somewhere between 1909 and 1926 (your 20ga.) that Iver Johnson is going to chamber it for a shell that doesn't exist yet?

With all do respect, your gunsmith doesn't know squat about Iver Johnson, other than it's a single shot. Again if your gun has no chamber length stamped on the barrel, IE: "2 3/4 CHAM." or "For 2 3/4 Inch shells" or just a simple "2 3/4". Have a competant gunsmith check the chamber length.

Regards Dave


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 Post subject: re: Barrel Question
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:40 pm 
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Thanks Dave. I don't know much about this gunsmith except that he has been in business for quite a while and a prominent sporting goods store in this area, Gateway Outfitters uses him. Do you know if Iver Johnson made 20 guage guns before 1926 or could they have all been 12 ga. at that time? What bothers me a little is that he didn't measure the bore. He just looked at it and said I could shoot 2 3/4 " shells in it.


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 Post subject: re: Barrel Question
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 8:11 pm 
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Papajohn: In 1909 IJ came out with the "Champion" single shot break action shotgun in, 10,12,16,20,24,28,32 ga. and .410 bore. That's a fact.

Your gunsmith has to much of a cavelier atitude for me. He has demonstrated that he knows nothing more than it's a single shot. You can find people like that in any profession. I would not do business with him.

If your gun barrel isn't stamped 2 3/4 it isn't. However since gunsmiths have been opening up short chambered guns ever since the 2 3/4in. shell came out. yours may have been opened up. Chamber gauges are cheap!! I paid $40. for mine. A gunsmith who doesn't have one isn't much of a gunsmith!

Regards Dave


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 Post subject: re: Barrel Question
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:21 pm 
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I have never used a chamber gauge but if you have good hands, good feel that is, you may be able to just use a 6" rule and use that as a feeler to measure the chamber length. I have checked a few modern guns this way and it seems to work for me. Keep in mind many modern guns have relatively short forcing cones that have a perceptibly steep angle to measure off of. A gun with 2" forcing cones might present more of a challenge to feel. I have no idea what an old Iver Johnson would have in that regard.

I agree that the gunsmith you went to does not seem particularly thorough. I would want to be sure of the chamber length, shooting modern loads out of a gun that old.

Jeremiah

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 Post subject: re: Barrel Question
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 8:59 pm 
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Well, I slid an unsharpened pencil down the chamber until I felt a slight hang up. It felt like a rough spot. I marked it on the pencil and measured it at 2 1/2". I repeated that several times sliding the pencil down each side and the top and they measured 2 1/2" every time. I think I have my answer. Anybody konw where I can buy some 2 1/2" 20 guage shells? Thanks to everyone for your help and advice.


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 Post subject: re: Barrel Question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:43 am 
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Good job papajohn: Well go back to the main forum page, drop down to where it says, " I love my" where all the manufacturers are list, go to the Winchester forum. I have a "Sticky" listed, showing short shell makers and some web sites where you can find the "short" shells you need.

Regards Dave


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 Post subject: re: Barrel Question
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2007 6:06 pm 
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rst or polywad make good 2 1/2" shells.

Brian

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