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 Post subject: 12 vs 20 knockdown power
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:58 am 
I was all set to buy an H&R rifled slug gun (12gauge), because I thought I could get a muzzleoader barrel for it too. Turns out their "Ultra Slugger" 12 gauge barrel is built on a 10 gauge platform and they don't make a muzzloader barrel to fit that.

I could go with their Ultra Slugger 20 gauge gun and get everything from muzleoader to certerfire rifle barrels for it. I didn't want to go down to a 20 gauge barrel for fear of losing some knockdown potential on deer though.

I'm sure 20's have accounted for plenty of deer over the years, but does anyone feel it's just about equal to a 12? Anyone have data on FPS, downrange kinetic energy, etc... that would "show me the math" as it were?

Thanks!

PS: a coupel weeks ago I posted a similar ?, but that was about inherrent accuracy of 12 vs 20 since a dealer had told me the 20 was more accurate. I'm looking for thoughts on knockdown power (assuming each are accurate). Thanks again


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 Post subject: Re: 12 vs 20 knockdown power
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 2:28 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 6:36 pm
Posts: 92
Location: OHIO
stray;

I can only address what i know for a fact ,shot a 12ga for 30+
years with foster type slugs and sabots all were adequate for deer up to 100+yds,switched last year to thee 20ga ultra slug hunter sighted in 2-3inch groups at 100yds bench rest groups
expanded to3-4inches at 125yds using lightfields and remington
ultra core lokts .Dropped first deer last year 107yds one shot measured with range finder ,bottom line i'm hooked on 20ga won't be using 12ga for deer again.
Isuggest you go to www.hr1871.com site and access barrel accessory program tab if I recall you can only put a muzzleloader barrel on the shotgun frame,but with the rifle frame you can do all three muzzle,shotgun,and rifle.
good luck!


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 Post subject: Re: 12 vs 20 knockdown power
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 3:06 pm 
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Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:14 pm
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Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
Again- anecdotal evidence, as you said.
The 20 can have more velocity out of the barrel, but since it is a lighter slug it will lose that energy quicker. Check a ballistics table using the same ammo and the numbers speak for themselves. Here's a link to the Remington core-lokt slugs you mention:
http://www.remington.com/ammo/ballistic ... /slugs.htm

In this case the 12 gauge beats the 20 all the way. As for accuracy- I think it depends more on the gun than the gauge. There is a recoil difference however- the 12 will obviously kick harder to get the heavier slug moving at the same velocity as the lighter slug. 12 ga. Core-Lokts are not for the recoil shy.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 vs 20 knockdown power
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 3:32 pm 
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Clay,

While this may not completely appease you, an accurately placed 20 gauge shot can kill a deer as dead as a 12 gauge shot can. The only difference might be, is the deer dead right where you shot him or did it run X number of yards. Again, shot placement will determine that for BOTH gauges. What results are you looking for?

David

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 Post subject: Re: 12 vs 20 knockdown power
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 4:01 pm 
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Ok here is the math on the 12 and 20 PREMIER® CORE-LOKT® ULTRA BONDED SABOT SLUGS per the numbers on Remington's site:


20ga
12ga

The "Moving Target Lead Data" assumes no cross wind
As you can see at 100yrds the 20ga fpe (foot pounds energy aka knockdown power) is still 1494, the 12 is 1641. So on shear power the 12 wins, but lets look at a common 22-250 round that is used to take whitetail at 150yrd ussually with a one shot kill.
We'll use the Remington Express 55grain:
22-250

At 150 yards, at which this round can easily kill a deer, the fpe is only 1112. If you only need 1112fpe down range to kill a whitetail, then I would say the 1494 you get from a 20ga is more than plenty! As stated before, shot placement and bullet type (HP, SP, FMJ, ...) will determine how far the deer will run. If you hit a deer in the lungs with any of the above loads, it will die in short order.

I also suggest that anyone who intends to kill anything with a gun read the following website. It relates to balistics and bullet wounds:
http://www.steyrscout.org/terminal.htm

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 Post subject: Re: 12 vs 20 knockdown power
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 5:02 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2003 5:51 pm
Posts: 87
The site that was mentioned by Gordon is of extreme use to any hunter. I have hunted whitetails since I was about 6, owned a lot of different hunting rifles and killed a lot of deer. Having that said, I believe that, as was stated by the website, one of biggest (to me the BGIGGEST) factor is the mental/emotional state of the animal. I have seen a 250lb buck drop in his tracks without any damage done to the central nervous system and I have had to trail a 100lb doe 400 yards after haven both lungs shot and a front shoulder broken. All in all I would go with the 12 for the shear fact that it has the ability to create a larger wound channel.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 vs 20 knockdown power
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:37 pm 
Great info and opinions everyone. Thanks!

GordonSetter.
Wonderful tables on the 12 and 20. The FPE #'s you quoted were a bit different than the tables though. It looks like instead of just 147 FPE difference, it's more like 807 FPE! (With the 12gauge retaining 2301 FPE at 100yds).

That's more than a third more FPE, which kind of leads me to agree with Nicolsid, that I should go with the 12gauge.


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 Post subject: Re: 12 vs 20 knockdown power
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:57 pm 
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If you want to do some more fun comparisons:

http://www.federalpremium.com

Check out the venerable, Royal & Acient 30-30 Cartridge and a 20 gauge P209XS Premium Vital Shock Barnes Expander Slug.

30-30 150 grain FNSP 100 yard - 1355 fp of energy
20 Gauge 100 yards - 1425 fp of energy

Go 20 gauge :!: :!: :!:

I have the 12 gauge and every time I pull the trigger I wish I would have gotten the 20.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 vs 20 knockdown power
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 10:39 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 06, 2003 7:15 pm
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Location: Illinois
All the gun companies make tons of 12 gauge slug guns but 20 gauges come out in a smaller number. They all stress the powerful 12 gauge slug. 20 guage slugs are small but are still big in size compared to a 30-06 or 308. A 20 gauge sabot should kill any deer within a 100 yards in anyones hands.


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 Post subject: Re: 12 vs 20 knockdown power
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 11:00 pm 
45- 70 goverment is better than both can take down any damn animal from a chipmunk to bigfoot


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 Post subject: Re: 12 vs 20 knockdown power
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 10:41 am 
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Joined: Thu Nov 13, 2003 2:14 pm
Posts: 148
Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan
yoda4x4 wrote:
Clay,
While this may not completely appease you, an accurately placed 20 gauge shot can kill a deer as dead as a 12 gauge shot can. The only difference might be, is the deer dead right where you shot him or did it run X number of yards. Again, shot placement will determine that for BOTH gauges. What results are you looking for?
David


Whoa fellas- I didn't mean to say that the 20 wasn't a good deer gun. I used one for my first 10 years hunting, and I had great success with it. I know it works great.

However, the question was "I'm sure 20's have accounted for plenty of deer over the years, but does anyone feel it's just about equal to a 12? Anyone have data on FPS, downrange kinetic energy, etc... that would "show me the math" as it were?"
The answer is that according to the math it's *not* equal to the 12. Of course, we can discuss what "just about equal" means, but the 12, in terms of trajectory and kinetic energy, is *superior*. Like I said- I'm not saying the 20 isn't a great gun for deer- I'm just saying in terms of *physics* (recoil aside) the 12 is better.
You are correct David, shot placement kills deer (as long as the projectile has energy to penetrate), but with a flatter trajectory and higher downrange energy the 12 would make that shot easier at longer ranges, right? That's my only point. At 50 yards, it doesn't matter; at 150, it could. That's all. I love to 20! I just use my 12 for deer.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 vs 20 knockdown power
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:39 am 
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GordonSetter wrote:
I also suggest that anyone who intends to kill anything with a gun read the following website. It relates to balistics and bullet wounds:
http://www.steyrscout.org/terminal.htm

(snipped for length) Wow Gordon- that was a *very* interesting website. What great information- I love to read info like this. Thanks!

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 Post subject: Re: 12 vs 20 knockdown power
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 11:46 am 
Matt17 wrote:
45- 70 goverment is better than both can take down any damn animal from a chipmunk to bigfoot


now, if I could only hide that 45-70 inside a shotshell, and tube the shotgun...so as to fool the Game Warden..............LOL


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 Post subject: Re: 12 vs 20 knockdown power
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 6:39 pm 
wtf i thought you could hunt with a 45-70 too :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: 12 vs 20 knockdown power
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 7:00 pm 
is this person right, you cxant hunt with a 45-70


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 Post subject: Re: 12 vs 20 knockdown power
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:31 pm 
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Both the 12 and the 20 will serve you well. Caliber/gauge means little if you do not put the slug where it counts: Right behind the front leg in the heart/lung vital area. About the size of a paper plate. Remember that head shots are questionable and bed shots are unethical. -Matt Latham

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 Post subject: Re: 12 vs 20 knockdown power
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:35 pm 
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Why are bed shots unethical? You've baffled me on this one. Shooting birds on the ground I can see, ducks on the water, ok but you lose me completely on bed shooting deer.

You ever bow hunted for mule deer in the west?

You pray for the buck to lay down so you can put the sneak on him.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 vs 20 knockdown power
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 8:59 pm 
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Personally, I believe bed shots on deer are unethical because the deer is sleeping!!! It gives no sporting chance for the animal to detect you. I personally feel that there is no sport in shooting a deer that was laying there in the grass asleep. To me, the ENTIRE fun of hunting is to get in the woods and match wits with the game you pursue. Shooting a deer while it is sleeping takes the enjoyment out of the hunt. BTW, I am talking about hunting whitetail deer in New York. Hopes this answers your question, Matt Latham

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 Post subject: Re: 12 vs 20 knockdown power
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:29 pm 
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Matt,
How many times have you kicked deer off of their beds. Hundreds I bet. Hundreds more you weren't aware of.

Remember these things aren't in the posturpedic, pulling the comforter on and setting the alarm clock. They are wild animals. They sleep with one eye open, ears locked in the full and upright position and their snoot in the wind. We're not the only predators they have to watch out for. Cougar, Wolf, Bear, Coyote and feral dogs all eat deer too.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 vs 20 knockdown power
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2004 9:12 am 
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I agee with jlptexashunter. Shooting a beded deer isn't unethical and I've hunted in New York State for deer for 21 years both Northern and Southern Zones. Matter of fact, in my opinion, if a hunter can INTENTIONALLY "still hunt" or stalk up to a beded deer,(especially a mature buck or doe) they are avery fine hunter and can do something the majority of hunters can't do. The fact is I would hate to count the amount of deer that I've walked by or kicked up because I wasn't using the wind correctly or using proper "still hunting" technique.


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