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 Post subject: Rad vs. Isis Recoil Reducers
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 1:05 pm 
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Can someone explain to me the differences between the Rad and Isis systems? Positives and negatives comparison of each?
I'm looking to add one of these to my clay guns and I'm not sure which way to go. I've always heard that the Isis was very good but yesterday I heard that the Rad was a better system and simpler to install.
Thanks for your help and comments,
DUK


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 Post subject: re: Rad vs. Isis Recoil Reducers
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 2:42 pm 
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Location: Wisconsin
I think the Isis is made up of a lot of plastic componets and thus weighs less. As for durability and how it works, I don't know anyone who has tried one. The RAD on the other hand seems to be very popular and I have had two of them and have been very pleased with how they reduced recoil. One thing that would concern me about the Isis is that while the RAD is sold and installed by several dealers, the Isis I believe is sold only by one, that kind of tells me which is by far the more popular unit. I know on the trapshooters.com website the RAD is mentioned often but never hear anything about the Isis. One of the RAD dealers once mentioned that he was offered an Isis dealerership but turned it down because he did not think the quality was on par with RAD or Gracoil. There may be more to that story but that's the only comment he made.


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 Post subject: re: Rad vs. Isis Recoil Reducers
PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:41 pm 
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Location: NSSA/NSCA Complex, San Antonio, Texas
The difference between a RAD and an Isis is considerable. Although I'm the world's largest RAD installer, I have also installed a few Isis systems for a dealer. And, yes, I decided against being an Isis dealer a few years ago. The RAD systems are adjustable tension, hydraulic recoil reducers. The main components are machined from 6061-T6 aluminum alloy and stainless steel. The Isis is piece of foam sandwiched between two pieces of plastic, with an air bleeder vavle to smooth it out. The only adjusting you can do on an Isis is to change the gunmount tension springs. Quite simply, the RAD Systems are the best recoil devices we have today. They are smooth, state of the art and very user friendly. There are models that have pad adjusters and length of pull adjustments as well, if they are desired. Isis offers no such options. I have removed many Isis units and replaced them with RADs after their owners shot a buddies gun with a RAD. The dealer I did the Isis installations for has had me remove all of the Isis units from his personal guns and replace them with Rads. Bobby Fowler uses a RAD. Scott Robertson uses a RAD. I have installed hundreds of them in the past 4 years and have yet to have anyone not be happy with them. On top of everything else, a RAD system is considerably cheaper than an Isis.....and they are made in the Good 'Ole USA!!!
Ken Rucker....Speedbump Stockworks
www.speedbumpstockworks.com


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 Post subject: re: Rad vs. Isis Recoil Reducers
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:55 am 
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Thanks for the information. I have heard some very good things concerning the Rad. What does the Rad add to the weight of the gun? Does it change the dynamics, handling , of the gun? Thanks,
DUK


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 Post subject: re: Rad vs. Isis Recoil Reducers
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:41 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 01, 2004 9:42 am
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Location: NSSA/NSCA Complex, San Antonio, Texas
Depending on the model, a RAD adds from about 5 to 8 ounces to your gun. The heaviest will change the balance point 1/8 to 3/16 of an inch. The current models are considerably lighter than the early ones. I have a lot of repeat customers.....as soon as they get a different gun, it comes to me for another RAD. Many of us who do stockwork for a living shoot RADs in our guns, and we can install anything that's made. We simply choose to use the best.

Ken


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 Post subject: re: Rad vs. Isis Recoil Reducers
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:49 am 
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Thanks Ken! I know your customers speak highly of you and your work. I will be giving you a call.
DUK


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 Post subject: re: Rad vs. Isis Recoil Reducers
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 9:06 am 
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Location: NSSA/NSCA Complex, San Antonio, Texas
903-815-6535.......I'd be happy to talk to you!!

Ken


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 Post subject: re: Rad vs. Isis Recoil Reducers
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:18 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:43 am
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Location: San Jose, Ca
There are quite a few features of the ISIS that didn't make it to this topic in the earlier posts. As I've been using these for a few years I thought I'd add the following.

The ISIS uses a hydraulic multivalved shock absorber, it adjusts itself for the load it senses between 5 and 25 ft lbs of recoil, your car shocks do a smilar thing, they sense the impact, then close or open valves based on the presure and shaft speed.

The shock absorber is made in the USA. and has an industrial life of over 1 million cycles. ( ISIS guarantees the shock for life and will replace it if it ever fails) I've never seen any part of an ISIS fail.

The linear bearings are made in the USA, are Teflon lined, maintained free, and they never need nor should be lubed.

The complete unit is light, so light that the amount of wood removed, depending on its density, is usually the same weight as the ISIS. Usually no weight gain, thus your gun keeps the same balance and you shoot it the same as before.

The plastic is an Acetel, light, very strong, tensile strength 9000 psi, compressive strength 15000 psi, much stronger than the wood in your stock. It also machines very well, is stable in a wide temperature range but it is 4 times the price of aluminum!!! Priced today at Enco.com : a 12" x 12" x 1/2" thick piece of 6061 T6 high strength aluminum is $11.50. The same size in acetel is $40. (Delrin is a common brand name for acetel)

Spring rate is adjustable by changing or removing springs. The shock's internal valve adjusts for the change in impact. Shock absorbers have been doing this in cars and motorcycles for over 50 yrs.

The ISIS is almost invisible once installed as a foam and leather insert covers the mechanicals and keeps dirt out of the shafts.

The springs must be adjusted for the gun weight, shooter, and the shell load. Installing it without trying different setups isn't going to get you the best results. The difference will be obvious, take the time to try different spring setups.

While I have not used the R.A.D, I have about 25,000 rounds through an ISIS. I installed it because of cronic disc problems in my neck. Most likely caused by the affects of recoil and my numerous other sports related injuries. I won't, can't, shoot without some form of recoil reduction.

I've tested these things in many different pad configurations. As someone in earlier post mentioned, the designer doesn't recommend a conventional recoil pad. There is a good reason for this, pads don't do a very good job of converting energy, they temporarily store it, like a spring, then release it a little bit later. If you install one of the popular thick recoil pads on the back of an ISIS it becomes a spring that isn't under the control of the shock absorber. Kind of like taking a shock off of one wheel of your car, there isn't anything to control the springs energy. To test this put your favorite recoil pad on a workbench and hit it with a 1 lb hammer, be careful, some of these will throw the hammer back up at a very rapid pace.

If you try the same thing with a shock absorber nothing happens, the hammer stays close to where it hit. The oil traveling through the shocks valving absorbs the energy. To further test this I installed a wooden pad instead of a thin rifle rubber pad and shot my clays gun this way for about 9 months. I liked how slick it was to mount the gun from a low gun position, no rubber to slow the mount, a bit of an advantage in low gun FITASC.

There is quite a few of the ISIS installed in this area so I've had the opportunity to observe shooters with different pads an ISIS spring setups. Watch the barrels of guns with and without and you can see an obvious difference in muzzle jump in guns without. But I see a similar jump at the muzzle with ISIS guns with a thick rubber recoil pad installed. When I talk to these guys they all were a bit afraid to trust the shock, or they thought they could further reduce the recoil if they installed a thick pad. If the right springs are installed your better off without it.


ISIS has come out with thier own thin pads and I've tried both thickness. These are not rubber!! They are made out of dual density foam, then covered at the shoulder end with vinyl. Tested with the old hammer and workbench impact test, they don't bounce at all. They don't look the best, but they come with some stuff to color the edges, I didn't bother and they seem to be holding up fine.

Does it wear out? I suppose eventually it will, but not yet. The linear bearings and shafts look brand new and the shock feels the same as a new one. The acetel parts only hold the bearings and shock in place so they don't have much stress if any and with a 9000 lb tensile strength you could lift your truck with a 1" square block of it. Cosmetically, I should replace the foam and leather cover as after three years it's showing wear. All springs eventually get weaker, so I'd replace those after a year or two depending on how much you shoot.

I recently put on an ISIS on my Beretta 391 just to see what would happen. To give you an Idea how important the right spring rate is ( that goes for your car, truck, or motorcye as well) I ended up with one light spring, normally I use two light springs on my over and under ( springs come in pairs) as the reduced recoil of the auto barely compressed the two pair setup. With one spring and the foam cover installed the recoil is light to say the least. ISIS gave me the heads up on using only 1 spring, so no problem not using two. A few of the guys I know were putting the heavy springs in, wrongly thinking that heavy springs would absorb more recoil. Ever ride in a lifted 4x4 with lots of springs and shocks? The ride is brutal, think soft!

Shooters ask me how much less recoil can they expect? Hard, if not impossible to say. Recoil seems to be different things to different people. Some people would shoot my gun and feel a big difference and others would not. Why? Gun fit is probably a big reason, I shoot a long gun so allot of shooters don't fit it. The shooters size and weight, how much they shoot, shell size and load, and whether they have developed a sensitivity to recoil all play a factor.

One way I can gauge recoil is by the number of shells I can comfortably shoot in an afternoon. With my 8 1/2 lb. over and under, pre-ISIS, a hundred was plenty. ( one ounce 1280 ft per sec and often 7/8 oz) with the ISIS I can shoot a 100 round tournament, then a practice round of 75 or 100 after. Tired, but not looking for the chiropractor. 150 for the day is really comfortable. I'd do this 2 or 3 times a week. Some of you may think that's not much shooting and by some standards your right, but 10 years of recoil has taken it's toll.

With the 391, things are a bit different. Before the ISIS, I'd shoot it 150 to 175 rounds and call it a day. After I installed the ISIS a flat of shells would be gone and I'd be looking for more. At that rate I couldn't afford to shoot it so I've had to cut back a bit.

This Saturday I let a friend shoot a few shells through the 391 and the only comment he had when he gave it back was " BB gun!" This was another Master Class shooter that who shoots a Perazzi with an ISIS installed.

I've installed 6 of these in other shooters guns, and there is at least another 30 in other local tournament shooters guns. So far I havn't seen any problems. As an ex- machinist, ex-motorcycle shock builder and tester. I have a pretty good understanding of suspension tuning. I'm sure that has helped me get the most of my ISIS, but they are really quite simple. The only thing that needs to be changed for each shooter is the springs. Lighter is better!!


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 Post subject: re: Rad vs. Isis Recoil Reducers
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:24 am 
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Thanks for your post Xspeed! Very interesting read. I wish you had posted earlier as I have learned something here. I had an Isis installed on my DT-10, but they installed a Kickeeze pad on the Isis. I just could not figure out why the recoil reduction or movement was not more reduced. It is softer shooting , just not what I expected when I had it installed on a new custom stock. When I pulled the pad off this morning to measure it, there is a note underneath warning not to install a soft pad. Go figure! I've got find someone who sells a more solid pad close to a 5/8 in. thickness now and see how it changes as you noted.
Thanks,
Duk


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 Post subject: re: Rad vs. Isis Recoil Reducers
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 4:13 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:43 am
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Location: San Jose, Ca
Pachmeyer makes a few hard rubber rifle pads that are about 5/8" thick. A better alternative would be the thick ISIS pad, its also 5/8" but may be very hard to find.


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 Post subject: re: Rad vs. Isis Recoil Reducers
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:24 pm 
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I've got an e-mail ito David @ Isis to see about his green pads and the movement (bounce ) I've experienced. I may be trying his 14 mm pad w/ a 3 mm spacer to see how that works.
Duk


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 Post subject: re: Rad vs. Isis Recoil Reducers
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:58 am 
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Thank you 'xspeed' for your time and effort in setting the record straight regarding the ISIS. You are obviously very knowledgeable and understand the reasons for making the ISIS as it is. I read most of the recoil related topics on the forums with interest. It is very difficult for me to comment on the various inaccuracies made by some trying to sell their own products without getting into negative advertising - I will not criticise another manufacturer's product to sell my own - far better to sell a product on it's merits rather than making another appear inferior

I am the designer and manufacturer of the ISIS Recoil Reducer and other recoil related products. My credentials for those who are interested, I am a qualified engineer who has spent a great deal of time designing and developing equipment using hydraulic shock absorbers. On the shooting front, I have shot clays at International level for more than 30 years. I have shot World and European competitions as a member of the GB FITASC squad and at English Sporting as a member of the England team. My experience in trap is more limited as I shoot it when time allows, 200-400 shells a week at Olympic trap or universal trench. Most weekends, I shoot FITASC or English sporting. For trap I use a K-80 or a Perazzi MX10 obviously with all the ISIS systems and products fitted and for FITASC and English sporting, I use a Beretta 391 semi-auto also with all the ISIS products fitted. I am AA at English Sporting, A at FITASC and the worst trap shooter in the country but I love the discipline!

Shotgun recoil is a difficult problem to quantify. The very high speed of the recoil pulse 1/40th of a second and the high impact force
280 lbs/ft for a 1oz load makes the understanding of what actually happens very difficult. The actual pulse is too fast for us to sense properly and when you consider that a top athlete at best can react in only 1/10th of a second, we mere mortals have no chance of performing any better. Quite often what feels right is not necessarily so. Sometimes the true impact to the shooter goes unnoticed because of the speed of the pulse. It only shows up later during the shoot or the next day with stiff neck or shoulders. In later life, rheumatism, arthritis or problems from general wear and tear can be aggravated. For my own part, I have a crushed disc at the base of my spine, damaged and worn discs and knuckles in my neck (left hand side as I am a right hand shooter). I actually got to the point of giving up shooting about 8 years ago when I could not pull the trigger on my semi auto even with light 7/8oz loads. Whenever I develop a product, I firstly try to make the recoil as comfortable as possible from a physical point of view. Then, using high speed photography and pressure mapping establish exactly what the gun and shooter are doing under recoil. Quite often what feels right is not so and products that bounce energy off the shooter rather than absorbing or using that energy are not good. Whilst the perception of recoil may be better, other problems of gun movement and rib/eye alignment can be affected. I hope this is of interest to you and thank you for taking the time to read it.

Shoot well and above all enjoy it!
David Izzard


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 Post subject: Re: Rad vs. Isis Recoil Reducers
PostPosted: Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:55 am 
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Duk

There are just as many opinions about recoil and felt recoil as there are opinions on amo, shot size and lead. The short answer is that all recoil reducers work and some work better than others....some are heavier than others....some cost more than others....some last more than others. You can't get rid of recoil you can only change how you percieve it....after that it is more what you feel than any other thing. When you combine these varriables with the varriable of gun fit and load you can see that there are an infinate number of things that can shape your perception. When you combine all these varriables with the perceptions of people on how things work vs the reality of how they really work man can you get confused.

Get what you want and what you percieve works best.....as professional shooting instructors we use ISIS and are pleased with the results and are happy that the light construction dosen't destroy the balance of the gun. We will be installing them on our K-20s to take to Argentina for our schools down there this winter. Not everybody likes the color red and by the same token not every likes a Browning. We have found that at the end of the day people shoot guns they like and enjoy shooting much better than ones they don't.

Recoill has a cumulative effect and there are those who will tell you that recoil dosen't bother them.....they have decieved themselves.....we see this every day we work......believe me when I say that everyone is effected by recoil....I personally have witnessed over 4 million shotgun shells fired as a professional coach and shooter for the last 30 plus years.....it doesnt matter how fast you say 4 million it is still a lot......recoil effects everyone....get your gun fitted correctly before you install your recoil reducer and go out and play.....

Good shooting
Gil Ash


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 Post subject: Re: Rad vs. Isis Recoil Reducers
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 11:48 am 
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Gil,

Can you please tell me who does ISIS installations in the Houston area.

Regards,

Marc


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 Post subject: Re: Rad vs. Isis Recoil Reducers
PostPosted: Wed Apr 14, 2010 4:48 pm 
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lagoshooter wrote:
Gil,

Can you please tell me who does ISIS installations in the Houston area.

Regards,

Marc


Marc,
Larry Feland does Isis installs in the Houston area. His number is 281-373-0335. I would bet that Larry Feland will be at Westside Shooting Grounds this Saturday for the SC tournament. Montana Long Guns installed an Isis on the custom stock they built for my DT-10L.
Regards,
Larry K. (AKA Duk)

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 Post subject: Re: Rad vs. Isis Recoil Reducers
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:25 am 
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I thought I'd resurrect this old thread just to add my .02...

I had an ISIS added to my 625 sporter and shot it for the first time yesterday. First off, the reduction to perceived recoil was amazing. Seriously, this device tempered the O/U shoulder recoil to that of a semi-auto, and a soft-recoiling semi to boot. Once I got used to it, I picked up maybe 10% or more targets. In addition, muzzle jump is cut to almost nothing, so I gained time on pairs. On the downside, it was so different, it took about two boxes before I could hit anything with the second shot -- my re-sight and trigger timing was all messed up. Once I got re-adjusted, the gun disappeared from all thought and I was smoking birds.

Re weight -- and IMHO this is huge: My Browning 625 with 30" barrels weighed 8 pounds 1 ounce with factory length stock and pad. I stretched LOP about 1/4" to 15" with this installation, and the removed wood and factory pad equalled the ISIS and its pad weights -- my gun still weighs 8 pounds 1 ounce and balance is virtually identical.

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 Post subject: Re: Rad vs. Isis Recoil Reducers
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:29 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:02 pm
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Location: Houston, Texas
Thought I would mention that Briley also installs Isis.


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 Post subject: Re: Rad vs. Isis Recoil Reducers
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2014 11:11 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 03, 2014 11:34 pm
Posts: 148
Resurrecting an old thread, but still of interest. Any ISIS dealers/installers in the S.F. Bay Area/Northern California/Reno, Nevada area?

Thanks in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: Rad vs. Isis Recoil Reducers
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 10:37 am 
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aBrowning,

Send a PM to xspeed.


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