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 Post subject: Re: re: 410 Rifled Slug Gun Project
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:45 pm 
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razdog wrote:
The fuzziness ends where the gun can chamber and safely fire a shotgun shell.

A member in the ASSA forum also recently indicated the other test of whether it is a shotgun or rifle is if it uses shotgun or rifle primers. I have not checked into it further.

But, it would only matter if it was over .50 as it could be construed as a destructive device. With the .410 case it does not.



I dont think that has any thing to do with it(the primer that is) because factory loaded brass shotgun shells are not loaded with shot gun primers, they use pistol or rifle primers. A case in point is Ed Hubels shotgun from Hell. I believe Ed stated somewhere that he had a letter from A T F stating that it had to chamber and fire the shotgun shell in question. Rich




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 Post subject: re: 410 Rifled Slug Gun Project
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:16 pm 
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This from wikipedia-

"Rifled barrels for shotguns are an unusual legal issue in the United States of America. Firearms with rifled barrels are designed to fire single projectiles, and a firearm that is designed to fire a single projectile with a diameter greater than .50 caliber (0.5 inch, or 12.7 mm) is considered a "destructive device" and as such is severely restricted. The ATF has ruled that as long as the gun was designed to fire shot, and modified (by the user or the manufacturer) to fire single projectiles with the addition of a rifled barrel, then the firearm is still considered a shotgun and not a destructive device."


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 Post subject: re: 410 Rifled Slug Gun Project
PostPosted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:46 pm 
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The ATF doesn't come in to play here its less than 50 cal. I think this all got started over whether a game warden would find it legal. He would have to as it a 410 chambered rifled slug bbl. same as a20 or 12 gauge. Some one stated it might be considered a wildcat rifle ctg by the game commision and would be ilegal if that were the case so would a 20 and a 12 gauge. the problem doesn't exist. Rich


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 Post subject: re: 410 Rifled Slug Gun Project
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:08 am 
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I agree with rshow. At least in Ohio there is no ballistic performance requirement, so handloaders are free to load light loads or whatever so long as the gun is "chambered" to a legal cartridge.

...And at the moment .410 is legal.

As far as the primer, I have not looked into it deeper since I do not own any FH shotguns or reload. I am always interested however, in preventing black pajama parties (ATF) at my house at 0430. My boss would froen on that. :D


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 Post subject: re: 410 Rifled Slug Gun Project
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 12:29 pm 
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Weather supposed to let up this weekend will go to the range. According to the UPS tracking # my shells are on the truck for delivery today. I ordered some 2 1/2 in Rem. slugs, 2 1/2 in tripple 000 buck (3 pellets), some 3 in Brenneke slugs 1/4 oz., some3 in WW 1/4 oz. and some WW 3 in tripple 000 buck (5 pellets), the 9.3 x 74 R cases are out of stock, will have to call around and locate some. Won't set up crono. this weekend To sloppy) but will crono . the loads when i get some brass next week. I am looking hard at imr 4198 for pistol bullets in plastic cases and 4350 and 4831 in the brass to keep pressure down. Will have some targets Sunday if all goes as planned. Will post some pics. Rich


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 Post subject: re: 410 Rifled Slug Gun Project
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:54 pm 
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rshow, here is some food for thought before you hit the range...

http://mcb-homis.com/slug_410/index.htm


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 Post subject: Re: re: 410 Rifled Slug Gun Project
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:06 pm 
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razdog wrote:
rshow, here is some food for thought before you hit the range...

http://mcb-homis.com/slug_410/index.htm


Raz

I saw that page,thanks anyway.
I am going to shoot the factory rounds first then load some pistol bullets. I want to try to get rid of the wads and gas seals. might have to use some card wads ? will wait and see. I will be happy if i can safely get the 210 gr. 41 bullet to 2000fps. I don't think a pistol bullet going any faster would hold up. I believe i could get the 300 gr. 405 bullet to 2100-2200 fps however the recoil would be stout in a 6 pound gun (Shotgun). The NEF on a rifle action would be a good candidate, cut off bbl any cal. and bore and thread the monoblock. A nice little 870 pump would be nice or a used 760 gamemaster. the 870 would be easier. I have a used 1100 410 but don't want to cut it. If this works out and i can use a 300 gr 405 bullet in the 9.3 x74 case i will build a double for it. Ups just delivered my shells, looks like ill be shooting this weekend. I am going to have a ball, i also have a double 20 bore to regulate and a 4570 x12 bore to regulate so i can finish them up. What a way to spend the day after a long stay in the shop due to the weather. Almost as good as sex, uh Maybe not. Rich


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 Post subject: re: 410 Rifled Slug Gun Project
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:11 pm 
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Hopefully your shooting will last longer in the former...

;)


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 Post subject: re: 410 Rifled Slug Gun Project
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:24 am 
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When I was contmeplting the .410 FH, I was thinking of the 45-70/444 Marlin as the higher end examples.

I would absolutely want to ditch the wads, cards etc. That is what makes this idea seem so much more practical and useful.

If it works out, I will probably end up acquiring a .410 pardner, and start loading.

I sent that link to show the variety of diameters commercial slugs are. This is some awesome stuff, keep up the excellent work rshow.


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 Post subject: re: 410 Rifled Slug Gun Project
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:31 pm 
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I have seen these guns built on an H&R frame here in SW Michigan. I saw a couple guns in the field when I stopped to talk to a couple hunters with what looked like rifles. The ammo looked like rifle rounds in the black sleeves on the stocks with the brass out one side and bullet out the other. They used AA 2 1/2" hulls with the bullet extending out from the crimp. They said the bullet was seated on the powder with no filler. I had a note with a name and number, but haven't been able to locate it.


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 Post subject: re: 410 Rifled Slug Gun Project
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:13 pm 
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Went to the range today to shoot some doubles. after taking a beating with the big bores i turned to the 410; what a pussycat cat. The Winchesters and remingtons were a big disappointment, six in groups were the norm; didn't surprise me as they are very soft. I think they stripped the rifling as the 1-14 twist is to fast. there was no forearm wood on it only the metal. I didn't want to shoot it with the wood till i glass bedded it. Then i tried the Brenneke, they are a good bit harder. What a difference. Now iam impressed with the little gun, this group was shot at 50 yds. This week i will be loading some jacketed slugs and working up diff. loads. Looking forward to getting some 9.3 x74 cases so i can try some 300 gr bullets.

[img][img]http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g211/rshow/sendoutpic1483.jpg[/img][/img]


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 Post subject: re: 410 Rifled Slug Gun Project
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:30 pm 
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Very nice shooting for a poor old 410. I agree with you one the Brenneke they are some nice slugs. They are also the largest diameter of the non-saboted 410 slug I have been able to find.

Have you found any of the Barnaul slugs? Its still a fairly standard foster slug but it is in loaded in a two piece sabot. The sabot measure .425-430 inches in diameter. It would be interesting if the plastic sabot would strip in the rifling or not.

I be interested to see if and how much better pistol bullets are going to shoot in it. Pictures of the loaded ammunition would be great to.

mcb

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 Post subject: re: 410 Rifled Slug Gun Project
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 10:06 pm 
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Did you look for the plastic down range to see if it hade rifling marks?? If you are useing plastic shells you should be able to roll crimp them. You maybe able to fit a pistol bullet in a shot cup to get a good fit like a sabot. Swageing should help get the fit right. You have a nice start now to fine tune it to what you want it to be. Keep up the good work. :wink:


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 Post subject: re: 410 Rifled Slug Gun Project
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:12 pm 
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Looking Good, rshow! Keep us all posted on your project. You just might have something here! :D Looks like you got a good group there as your target shows.

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 Post subject: re: 410 Rifled Slug Gun Project
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:14 pm 
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Worked up some loads for 210 gr Hornady pistol bullets. finally settled on 35 grs. H4895 in the winchwster cases, no fillers , no gas seals, just powder and bullets. I tried the Brenneke cases but they expanded .015 at the head and the winchesters only .003. the ww are much stronger than the Brenneke. So my loads for tommorrow will be ww cases, Hornady 210 gr bullets. and Federal 209 Primers. The load seems pretty stout but looks safe in the plastic case wws. I fired some into a 6x6 block of treated yello pine that was dried inside for 3 years. The slugs penetrated about 3 in. The cases looked good i loaded one three times and it held up well. I will only load and shoot the others once. I will chronograph them tomorrow and see where we go to next. I will be glad to get some 9.3x74 cases, i have them on order. Disected the blocks and the slugs look like they took a beating but all went in straight . Took these pics. so you can be your own judge.
[/img]Image
[img][img]http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g211/rshow/sendoutpic1487.jpg[/img]
[/img]Image
[img][img]http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g211/rshow/sendoutpic1492.jpg[/img]
[img][img]http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g211/rshow/sendoutpic1494.jpg[/img][/img]


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 Post subject: Re: re: 410 Rifled Slug Gun Project
PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:27 pm 
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Cuda wrote:
Did you look for the plastic down range to see if it hade rifling marks?? If you are useing plastic shells you should be able to roll crimp them. You maybe able to fit a pistol bullet in a shot cup to get a good fit like a sabot. Swageing should help get the fit right. You have a nice start now to fine tune it to what you want it to be. Keep up the good work. :wink:



No shot cups or sabos , only full bore ; thats the main reason for building this gun. I don't have a roll crimping tool, can make one but trying to keep it simple. I loaded the above cases by pushing out the spent primer and pushing in a new one against a block of wood, then the powder and pushed the bullet in with my thumb to the depth of the original. I did not crimp it at all, i just painted the bullet with a little laquer and pushed it in . this is truely hand loading. I don't plan on using to many plastic cases but if they perform well i will have to roll crimp. Rich


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 Post subject: re: 410 Rifled Slug Gun Project
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 11:31 am 
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Did you get a velocity on that first test load?


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 Post subject: Re: re: 410 Rifled Slug Gun Project
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:24 pm 
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thaner wrote:
Did you get a velocity on that first test load?


I could not get any vels. as it started to rain. I did get off some shots but the accuracy was not to good ; 6 in groups. the powder (4895) was to slow for the plastic case i could not get enough Pressure with the slugs not being crimped. I think imr. 4198 would be better with a crimp. Tried to locate a roll crimper but no success. I will make one up today. My cases should be here tomorrow (9.3 x 74) so then i can load them. Will have to fireform them first. I am going to try a case full of 4350 and 4831. Will start with 58-59 grains. With the weather the way it is,looks like sunday before i can shoot. I did get to shoot the Brennekes again ;this time with the forearm wood on the gun. I am posting a pic. of the group. Mid way has some 300 gr. .412 slugs but i think they would be to soft. They claim 1600 fps as max. They also list some bullets from Cast Performance bullet co. There 265 gr with a gas check; sounds like they might be a good choice. I don't want to order a bunch of slugs till i try the brass case loads. It can get a little costly with these .410 factory loads. I won't bother buying any other factory loads except Brenneke. I cant see wasting time and money when even the Brenneke leaves a lot to be desired for Deer. However if you don't load your own its a big improvement in accuracy. Will post the results after i have a range session with them. Rich
[img][img]http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g211/rshow/sendoutpic1501.jpg[/img][/img]


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 Post subject: re: 410 Rifled Slug Gun Project
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:25 pm 
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You were not kidding about the lack of .410 crimpers. Only found one for about $40 on Ballistic Products. Could n't even find any used on ebay.

I did find a .410 pardner barrel though...

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 Post subject: Re: re: 410 Rifled Slug Gun Project
PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2007 2:56 pm 
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razdog wrote:
You were not kidding about the lack of .410 crimpers. Only found one for about $40 on Ballistic Products. Could n't even find any used on ebay.

I did find a .410 pardner barrel though...



I started on one yesterday but it buckles the case. I am making a sleeve to put the case in while crimping , hope it works. I just ordered some 265 gr. gc bullets and some 300 gr Hornady jacketed bullets from Midway; just could not wait. This is getting expensive (oved 200.00 ) in ammo. and components. I am starting anouther 410 slugger in the very near future, a better design i believe. I will post pics after i make up a dummy chamber and case i will mill it in half so every one can see (a pic. worth 2000 words.) Rich




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