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 Post subject: Barrel bending
PostPosted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 7:11 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2003 7:42 pm
Posts: 35
Location: New Mexico
I've got a 11/87 Premier Trap Left Hand that shoots 4" to the right of center at 30 yards. All brands of ammo do the same thing as does all the factory chokes. A Wright's #6 choke tube also shoots to the right. Others shooters have tried and the gun shoots to the right for them also. A field barrel I bought shoots to the point of aim at the patterning board. Who can I contact that can bend the barrel to correct the point of inpact?
Rob.


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 Post subject: Re: Barrel bending
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 6:07 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:51 pm
Posts: 309
Are you talking about shooting slugs?

If you are talking about shot, then this is no big deal. I mean are you drawing a circle around the shot pattern and finding the middle?

First thing I'd do is shoot 4 inches to the left. Bingo, bull's eye.

Or if you've got to fix it, try sending the barrel to Remington and talk to them.

I've never heard of barrel bending, but then again, there are things that I've never heard of.


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 Post subject: Re: Barrel bending
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:25 pm 
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Sorry, I don't have any references for barrel bending, but here is something else you may consider. Moving the front bead approx 1/8" to the right would completely correct the problem. Moving the bead only 1/16" to the right would reduce the difference to only 2". Or, as Germster said, holding about 4" to the left would solve the problem. I realize this is hard to do when shooting at a moving target. Another thing to consider is that the pattern is probably 28-30" wide at 30 yards, so being 4" off center still puts the target near the center of the pattern. Or, you could concentrate on the left edge of the target and this would eliminate about 1/2 of the error. Good luck with your shooting.


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 Post subject: Re: Barrel bending
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:32 pm 
Let me make a few assumptions based on Rapid Rob's original post:

1) Since you have an actual Trap Grade 11/87, I assume your major concern is using the gun for trapshooting.

2) Bravo for doing a thorough job on patterning (you’d be surprised how many people shoot a single shell at a patterning board and believe that’s the pattern and Point of Impact they’re going to get from every brand of ammo and every choke tube!) You stated that the barrel prints its pattern a consistent 4 inches to the right, for all brands of ammo, with all your choke tubes (and even for different shooters). That sorta rules out the possibility that it’s a freak occurrence, or something in your technique that’s causing it.

3) Since it prints 4 inches to the right with all chokes tubes and for all shooters, I draw four possible conclusions (in order from most likely to least likely):

a) The front or middle bead is not centered on the rib. A front bead that’s about half-a-bead-width off center on a 30” barrel will cause the Point of Impact to be a few inches off to one side at a full 40 yards (assuming you line up the beads when shooting).

b) Somewhat similarly, the rib may have been attached improperly. It may not be in-line with the axis of the barrel – in other words, the rib is pointing one way, while the barrel is pointing very slightly in a different direction. It wouldn’t take much to cause a 4” shift at 30 yards.

c) The threaded portion of the barrel where the choke tubes go is not concentric with the bore. In other words, all choke tubes can be inserted normally with no binding evident, but the off-axis threads cause them to be at a very slight angle relative to the bore.

d) The barrel might already be a little bent.

Of course, the big question is: is 4” to the right something to really worry about? I know, it sounds like a lot, and we have every right to insist that a manufacturer provide a straight-shooting barrel, but have you really missed trap targets because of it? Is +/- 4” within the acceptable norm for Remington barrels? The field barrel that you mentioned as shooting dead-on might simply be one that, by luck of the draw, came out just right, while the trap barrel is near the allowable limit of Remington’s specs. If so, a lot of you might argue that 4” is a pretty loose tolerance, but you might be surprised at Point of Impact tolerances allowed by more expensive brands.

Bending barrels is sometimes done on trapguns to alter vertical Point of Impact. The barrel must usually be re-ribbed to hold the barrel in its new position, or you must accept the resulting unsightly bent “kink” in the rib. Once you bend one, you just created a big spring, and it spends the rest of its life trying to spring back to its original, unstressed position. In other words, I think bending the barrel to cure your problem would be a temporary fix – even if the bender happened to give it precisely the needed amount of bend. Besides, for an 11/87, what’s a new barrel cost compared to paying somebody to bend the old one? You might have better luck taking your chances with a new barrel.

Choke tube manufacturers (Briley et al) can sometimes machine a choke a little non-concentric to alter Point of Impact, but it gets expensive if you want multiple tubes done.

Some guys (me too) often say you made a “mistake” patterning your trap gun. The big problem is now you “know” about that 4” problem and it’s gonna mentally drive you nuts. You’re gonna always think, “how much further do I have to lead a hard-left target?” Before you knew about that 4” problem, you likely smoked just as many birds as your skill-level allowed. A standard joke among us trapshooters is: You wanna pattern your gun? Have a friend do it for you. If he’s a real friend, he’ll take your gun for a couple of days, do absolutely nothing with it, then bring it back and say, “It throws the best patterns I’ve ever seen!”

- Jeff


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 Post subject: Re: Barrel bending
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 10:22 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 9:01 am
Posts: 1154
Location: massachusetts
Remington has gotten themselves a well deserved reputation for not shooting to "point of aim" in their barrels equipped with screw in choke tubes. This is almost always due to a choke tube installation that is not centered in the bore. You can inspect your barrel for this problem by looking in the muzzle end (barrel removed, of course) and inspecting the choke's seat at the end of the milled area. Since the bore is always a bit smaller than the opening of the choke tube (this for obvious safety reasons), you will be able to see the edge of the bore right at the end of the choke tube. This edge must be of even thickness all the way around the choke seat if the choke tube has been installed on center..... If it is not, contact Remington and tell them that your barrel "does not shoot to point of aim". This is a complaint with which they have much experience. Mike Orlen


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 Post subject: Re: Barrel bending
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 2:59 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 02, 2003 9:51 am
Posts: 376
Location: MACOMB COUNTY MICHIGAN
I also would put a heavy bet that the tube system was installed off center, as stated before "it`s happened more then once!"

give REMINGTON a chance fix the problem if nothing is corrected then swich brands of shotguns or just buy a new barrel, because thats cheaper than precisely bending that barrel.

R.A.K.

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 Post subject: Re: Barrel bending
PostPosted: Tue Dec 09, 2003 7:16 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2003 1:52 pm
Posts: 6063
Location: Ontario, Canada
Maybe I have been fortunate, I have tested my 870 20g Lightweight Wingmaster, 870TC trap, 870 12g Wingmaster LC and Peerless and they all shoot to point of aim.

Their manufacturing dates span from 1989 to 1997.


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 Post subject: Re: Barrel bending
PostPosted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:51 pm 
OK, heres more data on whats the big deal. I've been shooting trap for fun and money since 1968. Shooting doubles was always one of my fun things to do. My home was robbed and my doubles gun, an overunder, was stolen. I ended up buying the 11/87 to get back into the game while I shopped for a new O/U shotgun. The first time I tried the gun I noticed that my scores dropped by 30%. I went to the patterning board and found the gun was shooting 4" to the right. While this sounds like no big deal, I was behind the hard lefts and in front of the hard rights. Station 3 going straight away, the shot allways hit on he right side of the bird and pushed the bird to the left durring flight, giving too many "gimmies" breaks. While shooting doubles, the second bird is so far out the the shot pattern is too far to the right to be in the kill zone. I have tried to move the front sight to comp the error, but I find that I will try to comp the sight pattern and still shoot to the right. The rib is on straight,so are the beads. Most likely, the choke boring is off center. What I would like to do is find a gunsmith that can bend the barrel back to center. When I was a kid, this was a normal thing to have done. Being a left handed gun, the barrel is special and no longer being made by Remington.
So why is 4" a big deal? Put a clay bird on its edge, and fire on it at 30 yards and count how many pellets strike the bird. 6-9 on avg of #7 1/2 shot using a modified choke tube. Now hold off to the right buy 4" and the number drops down to 2-3 pellets. Too many of todays birds are made hard to prevent breakage durring shipping. Not all targets will break with so few pellet hits.
Rob.


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 Post subject: Re: Barrel bending
PostPosted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:10 am 
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Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 9:01 am
Posts: 1154
Location: massachusetts
First of all, I'm not convinced that there are no other barrels available through the Remington parts department for a left handed receiver. Just because they are not being produced does not mean that none exist.

Bending a barrel is a common correction for repair of damage, but it's usually referred to as barrel straightening. Since point of impact is so much a matter of stock fit (and perhaps a bit subjective), bending a barrel to correct impact would be best done by the gun's owner, with a great deal of trial and error. If the shot column is being deflected by an improperly aligned choke tube installation (and this is very common in Remington barrels), this situation should be corrected rather than compounded with another error in alignment: a bent gun barrel. A gunsmith would generally shorten the barrel and reinstall the choke tube correctly; sounds like you might be looking for a blacksmith.


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