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 Post subject: Paper hulls
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:04 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:57 pm
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Location: Southern California
Do cowboy shooters need to use paper hulls to be considered historically correct?


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 Post subject: re: Paper hulls
PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:36 pm 
Shooting Instructor
Shooting Instructor

Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:35 am
Posts: 599
Location: Alabama
To be historically correct they should use roll crimped black powder loaded paper hulled shotshells.


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 Post subject: re: Paper hulls
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:16 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:07 am
Posts: 1763
Location: Paris,Illinois
Keep a few papers visible for show and shoot the plastics in competition-no one will be the wiser :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: Paper hulls
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 9:45 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2003 12:52 am
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Art Sorrentino wrote:
Do cowboy shooters need to use paper hulls to be considered historically correct?


I personally feel brass shotshells are more "correct" but paper shells were developed only very shortly afterward. Both were equally popular with those being further from a supply source being a bit more likely to use brass for its longevity for reloading and greater resistance to the weather.


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 Post subject: re: Paper hulls
PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 10:54 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2007 11:23 pm
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Location: MO
A few, maybe useful tidbits:

For those that might not know or realize, there is a difference in the bores of guns designed for brass hulls as opposed to the paper ones.

The ones designed from the start to use brass shells, were of a bit larger bore diameter. That was due to the thinner hull walls, and the larger hard card and fiber wads used with the brass hulls. (More like an 11 or slightly undersized 10 gage bore.) Not that these larger diameter components won't squeeze down and squirt out the standard 12 gage barrel, and likely with but little difference in pressure.

I have an old Parker, choked full and full, designed for brass. Larger diameter bores and miking the chokes, (without compensating for the large bore), one would think Modified and Modified today.

The next thing, if using paper hulls, the one most common, the Federal Papers, leak pressure/gas back around the primer, from the very first reload. So with black powder, you are going to be getting some minor gas cutting of the breech face, but the more important thing is the corrosive crud that will be deposited there and on back into the firing pin holes, etc. Just be aware of the need to clean farther back into the action than one might think would be necessary.

I used to use the Feds, and loved them, including the smell. But when I discovered this problem, I totally quit. I am now just shooting up my large laid in supply with smokeless reloads, and letting them fly! And since they have a tendency to swell when damp, I do not trust them for hunting loads! Damn!

If you don't believe me, and you have some black powder ones loaded up, just take a close look around the primer, after firing. You will find a smoke deposit there. Virtually every one. I have not seen this on other brands of paper hulls.

Clyde


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 Post subject: re: Paper hulls
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:12 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:57 pm
Posts: 557
Location: Southern California
If anybody is interested in Winchester once fired papers make me an offer. I have about 1500-2000 of them and they are just taking up space. You can buy all or part of them if you're interested.

You can e-mail me at s.skipsor@verizon.net.


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 Post subject: re: Paper hulls
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:54 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:16 pm
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Most of the CB shooters use paper hull because of the black powder, which can burn the plastic hulls.


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 Post subject: re: Paper hulls
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:41 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 6:59 am
Posts: 432
Location: Lawrenceville, Georgia
Jug,
I used to subscribe to this theory about shotguns specifically manufactured for brass hulls had, "different" dimensions. However, as the many, many, years have passed, I have come to believe that the actual amount of shotguns designed for brass hulls is VERY small, maybe even non existent today. Read on,,,,,,like yourself, I have an old Damascus barreled Parker, and it is in it's original luggage style case. When I purchased it, 1964, it even had some original Winchester brass hulls with it. Enclosed within the case was an old letter from the Parker company responding to an inquiry from the original owner about, using paper hulls in this shotgun! The "Parker Repersentative" assured the owner to "go-ahead" and also realted to have, "no concerns whatsoever". Interestingly, he also mentioned that soon all brass cases would no longer be available. Needless to say, I read this with sincere interest!
Pretty Neat Find Huh????
Rays

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 Post subject: re: Paper hulls
PostPosted: Fri Sep 26, 2008 11:41 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 6:59 am
Posts: 432
Location: Lawrenceville, Georgia
Jug,
I used to subscribe to this theory about shotguns specifically manufactured for brass hulls had, "different" dimensions. However, as the many, many, years have passed, I have come to believe that the actual amount of shotguns designed for brass hulls is VERY small, maybe even non existent today. Read on,,,,,,like yourself, I have an old Damascus barreled Parker, and it is in it's original luggage style case. When I purchased it, 1964, it even had some original Winchester brass hulls with it. Enclosed within the case was an old letter from the Parker company responding to an inquiry from the original owner about, using paper hulls in this shotgun! The "Parker Repersentative" assured the owner to "go-ahead" and also realted to have, "no concerns whatsoever". Interestingly, he also mentioned that soon all brass cases would no longer be available. Needless to say, I read this with sincere interest!
Pretty Neat Find Huh????
:!: Rays

_________________
Rays Gunstock Service; has extensive experience in gunstocking and gunsmithing. Now limited to stock work on shotguns, and the restoration of shotguns. Some duplication service is also available.


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 Post subject: Re: re: Paper hulls
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:41 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 21, 2004 11:00 am
Posts: 1009
jugchoke wrote:
I have an old Parker, choked full and full, designed for brass. Larger diameter bores and miking the chokes, (without compensating for the large bore), one would think Modified and Modified today.

The next thing, if using paper hulls, the one most common, the Federal Papers, leak pressure/gas back around the primer, from the very first reload. Clyde


jugchoke,

Anyone who knows choking, such as yourself for instance, would think nothing of the kind!

To even speculate how a gun will pattern one needs to know the differential between bore and choke... The constriction in other words. Yes, some choke designs don't follow this too well, like those made by your namesake and those with expansion/venting chambers prior to actually choke as in Cutts and Weaver chokes...

Even some conventional chokes still defy estimation of performance! I have a 12ga with only .007" constriction that thinks it's Modified with most loads!

As to paper hulls....
We don't do cowboy shoots; but we have a blackpowder event in our well attended "vintage" sporting clays shoot.

The "purests" use only paper (or brass) and fiber wad columns. I might add also those that have cleaned the ribbons of plastic from their bores!
Most use Federal papers ironed out and/or trimmed and roll crimped.
You are correct..... The primers will leak!

We now take some of Mom's fingernail polish and "seal" them in!
If one paints the primer hole and the o.d. of the battery cup before seating and these are allowed to dry a week before loading and a month before shooting; .... then you won't have any primer leaks!
You have to get complete coverage with the lacquer however. You know you've put enough on when a small bead appears around the primer when you look inside. Too much polish if the bead gets into the flashhole. The bead must have no bare spots as well.
Most the paper hull/blackpowder shooters are doing this now in our bunch and it isn't to bad or too much trouble for a couple hundred rounds for the shoot.

Slidehammer


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 Post subject: re: Paper hulls
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:31 pm 
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Location: MO
Rays, of course they would say that using paper hull, (and the corresponding wads), would be OK! Certainly usable, since they would be only a few thousandths smaller in diameter. Blow by, maybe, maybe not. But certainly plenty safe. In actuality, even going the other way, (brass case loads, corresponding wads), would not do very much in raising pressures in the slightly smaller barrel diameters.) Just as with today's variation in bore diameters. They just didn't have wads that were as forgiving of such, back then, with the paper/fiber ones.

And yes, I believe that there were few made as specifically for brass cases, and fewer yet have survived til the present.

Slide, I stand by my statement, that most folks today, just checking the choke diameter of my old Parker wouldn't know the difference and would equate the muzzle diameter with a "modifed" constriction. (Very few SXS were made with mod/mod choke constrictions, but lots were full/full.)

I "wasn't speculating" on how the gun would preform at all. I have shot it with brass, paper and plastic, (not something that I like to do, or recommend, because of that melted plastic deposit in the bore), cartridges. I know how it preforms. I was "speculating", if you must, on just how it would most likely be viewed by the "run of the mill" guy who happened to measure, just the muzzle itself.

One only has to be on here a short time to realize that somewhere around half of today's shotgunners are only some small steps above the old "dime" theory, and "full chokes"! Now, I know that is going to rile some folks, but tough! :roll: :lol:

And of course, anyone who knows more than the basics about chokes would soon figure it out!

And yes again, those leaky primers can be sealed. Just takes more work and time.

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 Post subject: Re: Paper hulls
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:00 pm 
Shooting Instructor
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Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:35 am
Posts: 599
Location: Alabama
Federal paper hull primer pockets tighten up when a MEC Super Sizer is used.


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 Post subject: Re: Paper hulls
PostPosted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 9:26 pm 
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Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:14 pm
Posts: 1263
Location: Alberta Canada
I use Gamebore papers, these were originally loaded with black powder, and i have seen no leakage from them - you can bet that if and when I do that hull will get scrapped!

I also use brass cases and actually like them better for re-loading , because i do not have to worry about wad height to get the shot close to the top - Ii simply glue in the over shot wad where the shot comes to in the case! :D
Cat

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