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 Post subject: Older shotguns and non toxic shells
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:29 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:23 pm
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I have several older full choke shotguns--a 12# Browning A5 from 1955, both a 20# and 12# Winchester Model 50, and an older 12# bolt action Marlin. Are there any non lead shells that I can shoot with these without damaging the bore? Thank you.


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 Post subject: re: Older shotguns and non toxic shells
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:59 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:57 pm
Posts: 557
Location: Southern California
Definitely no steel shot because it will damage the barrels of these guns.

Tungsten and bismuth shot possibly, but you should have the guns examined by a gunsmith before you fire any of these rounds to make sure the guns are safe and in good firing condition. That would also include firing any lead shot for the same reasons.

Obviously, it is impossible for anyone here to make that determination without a thorough hands on inspection of each gun. Don't even consider firing any of these guns before they are examined because they may not be safe.

You always, above anything else, practice safety when handling any type of firearm.


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 Post subject: re: Older shotguns and non toxic shells
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 4:35 pm 
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I wouldn't shoot any non-tox thru an old full barrel, I really don't think you would gain anything past an I/C choke.

I looked for Mod 50 barrels, cheapest I/C barrel I found was $250 (Corsons), might be more cost effective to take the plunge on a new/newer gun.

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 Post subject: re: Older shotguns and non toxic shells
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:15 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:34 pm
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Location: Nova Scotia,Canada
As far as I know Bismuth is safe for any barrel.It is soft and very close to lead.


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 Post subject: re: Older shotguns and non toxic shells
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2007 7:30 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 02, 2006 12:01 am
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Location: Holyoke Ma.
28 gauge is correct bismuth is fine in a old marlin 55 or any other older gun J C Higgins H&R yes even mossberg boltguns some of the last Marlin goose guns were steel shot cabable serial number begining in78 or higher are ok for Steel shot


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 Post subject: re: Older shotguns and non toxic shells
PostPosted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 9:39 am 
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Joined: Sun Mar 12, 2006 5:49 pm
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Location: St. Louis, MO
Unfortunately, the BISMUTH company has now closed, and their shells are hard to find.


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 Post subject: re: Older shotguns and non toxic shells
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 7:12 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:43 pm
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Location: PA Dutch Country
Bismuth

Kent Impact Tungsten Matrix- very expensive now, but some old stock is still around for $15-$20 a box of 10. If you can find it.

Hevi-Shot Classic Doubles is the newest "soft" non-toxic shot in factory shells. I don't know if this is in stores yet. http://www.hevi-shot.com

Niceshot is a soft tungsten shot that can be bought for reloading. http://www.ecotungsten.com/shots.html

With some old guns I would worry not only about the hardness of the shot, but also how stiff the load is. Some of the Kent loads are pretty heavy for an old sxs; Kent also makes an "Upland" line with their Tungsten Matrix non-toxic shot that is lighter loads than their "Waterfowl" loads.

Jeremiah

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 Post subject: re: Older shotguns and non toxic shells
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 8:31 pm 
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Back when John Olin was in bed with the do gooders and Ducks Unlimited, trying to foist steel shot on a gullible public then afraid of the "Coming Ice Age", too, Winchester did a lot of studies with old guns shooting steel shot. All this is outlined in Bob Brister's classic 1976 book, which everybody that shoots a shotgun should own. Here's the short version:

1. Don't shoot steel, period, in old Belgian Brownings and thin walled double guns. (I question if they opened up the chokes to see if that made any difference)

2. In modern American guns, such as your Marlin and Winchester Model 50, don't shoot steel through a full choke. Nothing tighter than modified. But, even then, some modern guns exhibited a slight "cosmetic" ring bulge right behind the choke, usually within the first 500 shots, and it didn't get any worse thereafter.

We are probably not only stuck with steel shot for here to eternity, the bad news is that gradually the do gooders will flat out law lead shot, like they did Freon 12, to where you can't buy it, and eventually to where you can't shoot it, everywhere.

Although I'm a Democrat, I believe that modern enviromentalists have done more harm to the average citizen in this country that words can express or accountants can tabulate, and they aren't through yet. But, there isn't much we can do about it, is there?

One thing you can do. I had a gunsmith put a sleeve on my Model 50 plain full choke barrel so I can use Winchokes. It's a "steel safe" gun now, and I get to choose my choke. They aren't worth much anyway. I paid $180 for the gun, in excellent condition, a couple of years ago.


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 Post subject: Re: Older shotguns and non toxic shells
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:41 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:50 pm
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Location: Kansas City and Buffalo Wyoming
Does ANYONE out there know of a shotshell manufacturer the makes non-toxic shotshells in 10 gauge what are safe to use with a fixed full choke?
1. Can't find Bismuth 10 gauge shotshells.
2. "Hevi-Shot" Classic Doubles shotshells which are safe for full choke shotguns, are not produced in 10 guage.
3. There are a few "Tungstun-iron" shotshells in 10 gauge (Federal Makes one called Federal Premium® Ultra-Shok™ High-Density™ Shotshells.
4. "Hevi-Shot" has a tungsten non-tox in 10 guage , but is rumored to not be safe for full choke shotguns.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Thx

KP

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 Post subject: Re: Older shotguns and non toxic shells
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 10:50 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:12 am
Posts: 75
DuckPerry wrote:
Does ANYONE out there know of a shotshell manufacturer the makes non-toxic shotshells in 10 gauge what are safe to use with a fixed full choke?
1. Can't find Bismuth 10 gauge shotshells.
2. "Hevi-Shot" Classic Doubles shotshells which are safe for full choke shotguns, are not produced in 10 guage.
3. There are a few "Tungstun-iron" shotshells in 10 gauge (Federal Makes one called Federal Premium® Ultra-Shok™ High-Density™ Shotshells.
4. "Hevi-Shot" has a tungsten non-tox in 10 guage , but is rumored to not be safe for full choke shotguns.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Thx

KP



Currently no one is producing a soft notox load for the 10. The only one I have ever seen was federals tungsten poly. I have about 20 boxes of if that I am pulling shot from to load for my 28 to waterfowl hunt with.

What gun do you have that is packing a full choke? Its not an old mag 10 is it?


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 Post subject: Re: Older shotguns and non toxic shells
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:12 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:09 pm
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Location: Las Vegas NV
Yes RST shells with "nice shot"


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 Post subject: Re: Older shotguns and non toxic shells
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:14 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:50 pm
Posts: 50
Location: Kansas City and Buffalo Wyoming
hamernhonkers wrote:
DuckPerry wrote:
Does ANYONE out there know of a shotshell manufacturer the makes non-toxic shotshells in 10 gauge what are safe to use with a fixed full choke?
1. Can't find Bismuth 10 gauge shotshells.
2. "Hevi-Shot" Classic Doubles shotshells which are safe for full choke shotguns, are not produced in 10 guage.
3. There are a few "Tungstun-iron" shotshells in 10 gauge (Federal Makes one called Federal Premium® Ultra-Shok™ High-Density™ Shotshells.
4. "Hevi-Shot" has a tungsten non-tox in 10 guage , but is rumored to not be safe for full choke shotguns.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Thx

KP



Currently no one is producing a soft notox load for the 10. The only one I have ever seen was federals tungsten poly. I have about 20 boxes of if that I am pulling shot from to load for my 28 to waterfowl hunt with.

What gun do you have that is packing a full choke? Its not an old mag 10 is it?


Yup...sure is... an old Ithaca Mag-10 Supreme with 32 inch barrel and full choke.

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 Post subject: Re: Older shotguns and non toxic shells
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 1:47 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:50 pm
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Location: Kansas City and Buffalo Wyoming
wildlew wrote:
Yes RST shells with "nice shot"

Thanks Wild Lew..

Unfortunately, I don't think these RST 2 7/8 inch shells will cycle in the Itaca mag-10 ("3 1/2 inch shothells only" it says) autoloader.

KP

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 Post subject: Re: Older shotguns and non toxic shells
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:09 pm 
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DuckPerry wrote:
hamernhonkers wrote:
DuckPerry wrote:
Does ANYONE out there know of a shotshell manufacturer the makes non-toxic shotshells in 10 gauge what are safe to use with a fixed full choke?
1. Can't find Bismuth 10 gauge shotshells.
2. "Hevi-Shot" Classic Doubles shotshells which are safe for full choke shotguns, are not produced in 10 guage.
3. There are a few "Tungstun-iron" shotshells in 10 gauge (Federal Makes one called Federal Premium® Ultra-Shok™ High-Density™ Shotshells.
4. "Hevi-Shot" has a tungsten non-tox in 10 guage , but is rumored to not be safe for full choke shotguns.

Anyone have any thoughts?

Thx

KP




Currently no one is producing a soft notox load for the 10. The only one I have ever seen was federals tungsten poly. I have about 20 boxes of if that I am pulling shot from to load for my 28 to waterfowl hunt with.

What gun do you have that is packing a full choke? Its not an old mag 10 is it?


Yup...sure is... an old Ithaca Mag-10 Supreme with 32 inch barrel and full choke.



Why not have it threaded for chokes, or at least opened up to something suitable for use with the new shot types?

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 Post subject: Re: Older shotguns and non toxic shells
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:39 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:12 am
Posts: 75
+1 to having it opened up or I have seen where many guys are shooting steel out of theirs with the full tube. Some patterns are very nice but some get blown but the mag 10 seems to handle steel just fine with the full choke.

You could give Briley a call. I can think of about 3 or 4 guys on DHC who have sent theirs in and had Briley tubes installed. Either way classic gun sir!


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 Post subject: Re: Older shotguns and non toxic shells
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 5:26 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 4:09 pm
Posts: 574
Location: Las Vegas NV
No a 2 7/8'' shell will not cycle those guns.
It has to be a 3 1/2'' shell coming out of the mag to close the action.

I too would have it choked and shoot steel.


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 Post subject: Re: Older shotguns and non toxic shells
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:42 am 
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I sent you a PM.

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 Post subject: Re: Older shotguns and non toxic shells
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:10 am 
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I use and love these in my old Browning Superposed guns.

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 Post subject: Re: Older shotguns and non toxic shells
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:25 pm 
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Iffen I had a nice old A5, a bit of an American classic, I'd be reluctant to start boring it out.

LTMFH has pointed the way forward; the tungsten loads are excellent, if pricey, and so it depends on just how many rounds you anticipate firing. Given the cost of everything else involved in a hunting trip you might just be prepared to swallow the cost.

I have a couple of hundred Bismuth rounds left (I only shoot 20 - 30 in a season) but wouldn't regret their passing, for middling range duck they are sort of OK, but on longer range birds I got a lot more cripples than liked. I certainly needed a good dog!

Frankly I'd treasure the old girl and buy a second hand Benelli or Beretta to do the dirty work.

Eug

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 Post subject: Re: Older shotguns and non toxic shells
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:11 pm 
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Duck Perry wrote:" Does ANYONE out there know of a shotshell manufacturer the makes non-toxic shotshells in 10 gauge what are safe to use with a fixed full choke?
1. Can't find Bismuth 10 gauge shotshells.
2. "Hevi-Shot" Classic Doubles shotshells which are safe for full choke shotguns, are not produced in 10 guage.
3. There are a few "Tungstun-iron" shotshells in 10 gauge (Federal Makes one called Federal Premium® Ultra-Shok™ High-Density™ Shotshells.
4. "Hevi-Shot" has a tungsten non-tox in 10 guage , but is rumored to not be safe for full choke shotguns.

Anyone have any thoughts?"

I have two thoughts. Non toxic loads tend to pattern tightly in most guns and Full Chokes are a poor choice as they often do not pattern well with some of the loads.

The second thought is that you should catch up with the times and learn to hunt waterfowl in the modern world. Get a gun that will handle modern loads and learn to shoot better.

Regardless of what some regulars write here about how awful steel shot is I have to respond. It is time to get over it and learn to shoot steel shot. Become a better hunter and get birds closer. I miss shooting lead shot at ducks and geese. I miss the long shots out at a real 50 yards, but I am not going to let it get under my skin so much that it ruins my favorite time of the year.

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