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 Post subject: Von Lengerke and Detmold, U.S. Agents New York
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:23 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:58 pm
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Hello, first time poster here - I was hoping for some help. Recently upon cleaning out a deceased relative's house, I came upon a shotgun that my grandmother identified as having been her grandfather's. This gun hadn't been seen for 50 years, and while it's pretty sound, it does have honest wear on it and looks like it has been sitting in a case for, well, 50 years. I was hoping for a little help in identifying it, as internet searches and the like have given me some clues, but nothing conclusive.

It is a 12 gauge hammerless side by side. One barrel as well as both "sides" of the gun below the breech say "Von Lengerke and Detmold, U.S. Agents, New York". The underside of the barrels have various markings - "E" over "LG" over a star enclosed by and oval with a crown on top. "12G" in a diamond - that one's easy. "EL" in an odd interlocking script. A "G" with a star over it, and a symbol that reminds me of an old Atari Joystick. The barrels say both say "Krupp Steel" at the breech end, and one says "The Knock About Gun" opposite the VL&D engraving on the other barrel. Almost forgot - it says "Belgium" behind the trigger guard. It's moderately engraved and the breech and release lever have a sort of stippled effect going on. My impression is that VL&D were the importers, but no manufacturer or indeed serial number appears on the firearm. I believe Francotte marketed a "Knock About Gun" but as far as I know it's a fairly common term. Any opinions or answers? I'd be interested in value not because I would ever sell it - piece of family history and all that - but because my brother snagged this fellow's 16ga. Parker some years ago which was a real kick in the pants. If I'm holding a nice gun here (after a little cleanup) I finally have my revenge.




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 Post subject: re: Von Lengerke and Detmold, U.S. Agents New York
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 8:47 pm 
ID & Value Expert
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It could be a Francotte, however most of their KnockaBouts were marked. Some pics would help... Bushrod


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 Post subject: re: Von Lengerke and Detmold, U.S. Agents New York
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:06 pm 
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Bushrod, I very much appreciate your response. Please give me a day or so to take the pics and post them here.


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 Post subject: re: Von Lengerke and Detmold, U.S. Agents New York
PostPosted: Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:14 pm 
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The proof marks are from Liege, Belgium.

E over LG with star in oval = indicates final black powder proof. This indicates a standard load proof.

"Joystick" = The famed Belgium perron that all breach loading guns must have after passsing BP proof & inspection.

12G in diamond = indicates a 12ga un choked barrel. Choked barrels will have a C under the gauge.

Krupp was the provider of the German steel in the barrels.

Von Lengerke & Detmold were importers before WWII.

The gun is most likely a Belgium guild gun that was made for the US importer. To value the gun it would have to be done "in hand".

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 Post subject: re: Von Lengerke and Detmold, U.S. Agents New York
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:04 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:58 pm
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A few "shots"...


Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


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 Post subject: re: Von Lengerke and Detmold, U.S. Agents New York
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 5:13 pm 
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Hey folks, hope people are still reading this thread. I have a very similar shotgun passed on to my parents by a family friend, unknown story beyond that. It has the same markings on the top of the barrel, but the markings on the underside are very different - was wondering if anyone could shed some light on it...

The right barrel has the following marks:
two crowns
some sort of figure of a standing person
a B with a crown over it
an S with a crown over it
a U with a crown over it
13/1
and 12 in a circle.

The left barrel has the following marks
the B with crown
the W with crown
the U with crown
12
and 12 in a circle

The top of the barrel, as on the previous gun, says on the Left Barrel: The "Knock About" Gun
and on the Right: vonLengerke & Detmon, New York
the base of both barrels reads: Krupp Steel - Germany.

The (lock?) has the following marks - J.P. Sauer & Son, Maker and Patentee
and
vonLengerke & Detmond
U.S. Agents, New York

Also, any recommendations as to who in the Maryland area could provide a valuation for insurance purposes?

Pictures to follow when my wife gets back from her parents place!


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 Post subject: Re: re: Von Lengerke and Detmold, U.S. Agents New York
PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:46 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 12:28 am
Posts: 46
[quote="capnahab"]A few "shots"...


Image

It appears to be a back action barlock sidelock. In other words, it is a back action sidelock with sideplates that make it look like a barlock action.

Congratulations, all things being equal, this makes it a strong, light action that should give reliable service.


Last edited by beesley on Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: re: Von Lengerke and Detmold, U.S. Agents New York
PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:25 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:10 pm
Posts: 72
Location: Morristown, NJ
Capnahab

I am currently researching the VL&D sales records for Griffin & Howe. G&H has the records from 1901 up to 1929 when VL&D was purchased by Abercrombie & Fitch. As you noted the 'Knockabout' name was applied to several different makers. As you and others have noted your gun is Belgian but possibly not by Francotte. I had a look at the photos and noted that there appeared to be a 3 digit serial number on the water table but I could not read it. If so, is there any chance that you could post it here or email it to me. In the earliest VL&D book there are pages where the make is listed as Knockabout but the serial numbers are in the 6xxxx range. Do you see any number like that on your gun?

Bob Beach


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 Post subject: re: Von Lengerke and Detmold, U.S. Agents New York
PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 10:30 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 2:10 pm
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Location: Morristown, NJ
Capnahab, Seafort, and others interested in VL&D guns:

I have a bit of information to add which may clarify things about the Knockabout. Our VL&D records cover the years 1901 to 1929 (when they were purchased by A&F) and in 1901 the Knockabout was made by Sauer. In 1904 VL&D stopped importing the Sauer Knockabouts and began to import Knockabouts made by Francotte. They probably kept the name because the gun had become very popular. The highest serial number for a Sauer Knockabout was 108035, received in 1903 (guns were not imported and received in strict numerical order, by s/n). The lowest Francotte Knockabout number was 61299, received in 1905. Of course, the big difference between the 2 models was that the Sauer was a sidelock made in Germany and the the Francotte was a boxlock made in Belgium. Seafort's gun should be the former. Capnahab's is Belgian but a sidelock with no makers name and, apparently, no serail number. Perhaps, and this is only a guess, when VL&D stopped importing Sauers they looked to Belgium to produce a similar sidelock version and imported samples to test before they settled on the Francotte boxlock. If so, that could explain Capanahab's gun. The "Knockabout" was a staple for VL&D and A&F. In fact, A&F continued to market a Knockabout model made by Zoli Rizzini well into the 1960's. Hope that this sheds a bit of light.

Bob Beach


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 Post subject: re: Von Lengerke and Detmold, U.S. Agents New York
PostPosted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:07 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:58 pm
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Bob, Thanks very much for your reply. I will review the photos I took of the gun (I have a lot that I didn't put up here), to see if I can find the information, but failing that I will need to wait until the next time I visit my mother as I keep it at her house.


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 Post subject: re: Von Lengerke and Detmold, U.S. Agents New York
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:47 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:21 am
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I owned that very same model Knockabout for a number of years. It's a J.P. Sauer sidelock imported by VL&G. I recognize it from the doll's head barrel extension and the unusual cocking indicators. The small circular piece on each sideplate is the cocking indicator for the barrel on the corresponding side. If you cock the gun and then fire (preferably with a shell or snap cap in each chamber), you'll see the raised bar on the indicator rotate to indicate the hammer movement--i.e., clockwise on the right plate and counterclockwise on the left plate.

My gun had 28" bbls and weighed 6.5 pounds and I'm fairly sure it was an early gun in that model. I say that because the stock had a pretty low comb; I've seen later guns with more "modern" dimensions. If the buttplate is still on your gun it should be made of horn with horizontal grooves running from one side of the stock to the other.

Although this model is rather modest relative to other German sidelocks of that era, mine brought a surprisingly good trade-in sum depite the fact that it had been more than a little, well, "knocked about". The triggers on mine were the best I've ever had on any shotgun--field or competition. Eventually I was sorry I ever parted with it, but, then again, it did fetch an awfully good price for an old, banged up shooter.


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 Post subject: re: Von Lengerke and Detmold, U.S. Agents New York
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:21 pm 
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4Flusher:.. I agree, It LOOKS like a Sauer, and May be a Sauer, But why the Belgian rather than Suhl proofs,, Was your's Belgian prooved?..Bushrod


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 Post subject: re: Von Lengerke and Detmold, U.S. Agents New York
PostPosted: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:21 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 01, 2008 4:21 am
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Bushrod,
My gun was definitely a Sauer and plainly marked as such; as I recall, the maker's name appeared on the sideplate as "J. P. Sauer & Sohn" and I almost certain this was followed by "Suhl", the shop location. As soon as I got it home I looked up the proof marks in a book I have and they all clearly indicated a German origin. Since it's been quite a while since I've owned the gun, I can't remember any other details w/regard to marks.

I just now noticed the word "Belgium" on the lower tang of the gun in question here; obviously this was definitely not there on my piece. Other than that and the fact that the stippling on the top lever on my gun was less extensive (more confined to the area along the center line), my gun appeared exactly as in the photos, including the "Krupp Steel" on bbl.

Is it possible that, for whatever reason, the tooling for this gun was re-located to Belgium with few changes to the gun thereafter?


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 Post subject: Re: Von Lengerke and Detmold, U.S. Agents New York
PostPosted: Wed Dec 29, 2010 4:18 pm 
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Location: Eureka Springs, AR
In regard to the L&D Sauer. I have one that is for sale on Gunbroker. Mine is very much like the one Bob described. You can see it @ http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =208141275 Thanks for the information it looks like this one was made about 1901-02.




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