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 Post subject: Shooting Sabots through a Smooth Bore 12G
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:27 pm 
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I have been doing some research on slugs & have found Sabots carry way more knock down power than a rifled slug. In some cases, over 1000ft/sec faster and 1000lbs/energy more at 100yards. Quite a difference. I understand the principles of why one should shoot sabots out of a rifled barrel & rifled slugs out of a smooth barrel (better accuracy). How much accuracy is lost by shooting a sabot out of a smoth barrel? Can I still hit a stop sign at 100 yards? I am not going to be hunting, only for protection from bears. I cannot see myself shooting a bear at a 100 yards, however if the bear decides to turn, I want the best BANG for my buck & have the confidence of shooting the hardest knock down slug I can buy. I have a Rem 12G Marine Magnum. Any help would be greatly appreciated.




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 Post subject: re: Shooting Sabots through a Smooth Bore 12G
PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:38 pm 
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Saboted ammo needs the rifling in a rifled barrel to spin the slug and produce accurate results.

In your smooth bore gun you are wasting your money with saboted loads.

I would look @ brenneke slugs for the situation your looking at.

I can't think of a better choice.

Jim


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 Post subject: re: Shooting Sabots through a Smooth Bore 12G
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:03 am 
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There is a good reason why nearly all sabot ammo is marked "for rifled barrels only".
It's because they are made for rifled barrels only!
You didn't mention, or I flat missed in your post, if you have any choke at all in your smooth bore?
If you do and shoot saboted slugs you most likely won't have any choke left and you could just split the muzzle end of your s.g.
I can't say I that your accuracy standards are very high. :lol:
A stop sign, most around here anyway, is a whole lot bigger than the kill zone of any bear I ever heard tell of.
Now maybe if you are concerned about running into T-Rex that standard might be applicable.
:wink:
Thre is snothing wrong with your smooth bore s.g. for bear protection. In fact everything right about it.
You just need the correct ammo for your barrel.
What is it your shooting anyway?
If it's a 12 bore with modified or less chock then the Brenneke K.O. is about spot on for your purposes.
Listen: I've killed over 50 whitetail with the older vesrion of the Winchester 1 ounce dead soft foster (rifled slug).
Ballistics are 1500 f.p.s. at the muzzle for the 437.5 grain one ounce near 3/4 diameter lead bullet.
Than traslate into more whoooop-butt than you can imagine in the real world.
It kills.
If you are really concerned about stopping a critter for having you for lunch a Brenneke, because of it's better construction, is your ticket to keeping your skin in one piece.
The K.O. is:
Cheap
Available
Effecient
Now if you are really serious about stopping a critter intent on causing you intense emotional upset scroll down to Dixie ammo, a sponser on this site, and order at least 5 boxes of that locomotive stopping ammo.
It's not:
Commonly available
not cheap
is the BEST in it's class.
Also check out Dixie Tri-ball loads. Awesome!
Five boxes is 25 rounds which should enable you to pratice with at least 10 or 15 rounds and keep the remainder to stop T-Rex.
By the way. You can't shoot the s.g. without sights any better than you can a hunting rifle without sights.

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 Post subject: re: Shooting Sabots through a Smooth Bore 12G
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:30 pm 
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Thanks guys.... I do not have a choke on the gun.... Very basic Shot Gun.... I will look into the ammo suggested.... Thanks for your reply....


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 Post subject: re: Shooting Sabots through a Smooth Bore 12G
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:39 pm 
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The shotgun has to have some sort of choke, even if it isn't a screw in. If it doesn't have screw in chokes it is just built into the barrel. It should say somewhere on the barrel what the choke is.

Paul

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 Post subject: re: Shooting Sabots through a Smooth Bore 12G
PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:38 pm 
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trevor:
Quote:
I have a Rem 12G Marine Magnum


A Remington 12 gauge Marine magnum has a improved cylinder barrel on them from the factory, with a nickel finish on all the metal parts. Nice looking shotguns.

I think the Brenneke slugs would do the trick for you, but if your gun has the single bead sight, you'll need to add sights or a scope to be very accurate @ any distance.

Good luck to you,

Jim


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 Post subject: re: Shooting Sabots through a Smooth Bore 12G
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:34 pm 
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From my notes, the Marine Magnum has a "Cylinder" barrel, not an "Improved Cylinder".... I assume they are not the same? It was always my impression that a "Cylinder" barrel has no restrictions what so ever?? If I am mistaken, please let me know...

As far as the ammunition, I have found that the Federal Slugs have more Velocity and more Energy than all the others listed. I assume that the higher Velocity and Energy, = greater knock down??


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 Post subject: re: Shooting Sabots through a Smooth Bore 12G
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:50 pm 
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I dont know whether marine magnum has improved or reg cylinder, but they arent the same thing. You are right about cylinder having no resrictions. Improved is a bit constricted though. Greater knockdown is somethings ability to transfer all of its energy to a target other than just going straight through, retaining most of its energy.


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 Post subject: Re: re: Shooting Sabots through a Smooth Bore 12G
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:34 pm 
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Deerbuster wrote:
Greater knockdown is somethings ability to transfer all of its energy to a target other than just going straight through, retaining most of its energy.


So I assume then by your comment that the highest velocity and the highest lbs/energy a slug produces is not necc. the best knock down slug.... Potentially the biggest slug, combined with a good velocity/energy is another good solution as more lead in the air should tech. hit you harder....?

Thanks again to everyone who posted. A little bit of a learning curve, but obviously worth the time....


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 Post subject: re: Shooting Sabots through a Smooth Bore 12G
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:13 pm 
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A hollowpoint gives more knockdown by slowing down penetration and transferring more energy, than say, a copper jacketed pointed rifle bullet. Also, expansion helps cause more internal damage to an animal by making a larger (wider) wound channel.


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 Post subject: re: Shooting Sabots through a Smooth Bore 12G
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:40 pm 
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trevor you've gotten some good rudimentary information here.
Follow the advice and you are on your way.
There is much, much, more to terminal ballistics than posted here.
In fact there are many books written on the subject of terminal ballistics.
(terminal = what happens when the bullet hits)
Just as a for instance and not to try and confuse the issue but a full metal jacket rifle bullet which is not designed to expand at all can cause massive wounds and transmission of kenetic energy by means other than controlled expansion.
Many high velocity full metal jacket military bullets are designed to tumble on impact thus creating huge catastrophic wounds.
Many small high speed mil-spec bullets will actually tumble and break at the crimping groove causing much destruction in tissue.
Bullets for the sport hunter are generally of the controled expansion variety, whether soft or hollow point.
Full bore caliber heavy lead slugs may or may not expand one bit but the .73 caliber blunt nose causes tremendous damage.
"Knock-down" power really is an antiquated term but it still seems to carry a point across anyway.

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 Post subject: re: Shooting Sabots through a Smooth Bore 12G
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:32 pm 
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jeager,

I meant, it still retains most of its energy because its penetrating through, and the aerodynamic design helps slit it through even faster, so it will still have a decent percentage of remaining energy after it exits the animal.


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 Post subject: re: Shooting Sabots through a Smooth Bore 12G
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:33 pm 
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Oh, i didnt see the part where u meantioned it will tumble (no edit). That will limit range and accuracy however.


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 Post subject: Re: re: Shooting Sabots through a Smooth Bore 12G
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:30 am 
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Deerbuster wrote:
Oh, i didnt see the part where u meantioned it will tumble (no edit). That will limit range and accuracy however.

No, no. Not tumble in flight (exterior ballsistics) but tumble on impact.
Huge difference there. A bullet that tumbles in flight is destabilized resulting in rapidly deteriorating accuracy and ballistic characteristics.
The mil-spec bullet tumbles on impact and quite quickly too.
Thye full bore slug, like the Brenneke K.O. and our own Dixie, really are not designed to expand at all.
The Winchester and Remington foster (rifled slug) wears a dimple in the soft lead nose largely for cosmetic reasons.
Sure some of these will flatten out at close range, or upon impacting bone, but they are not specifically designed to "expand" like a traditional hunting controlled expansion bullet.
The fact that the .73 caliber bullet has such a blunt nose and huge surface area makes them quite deadly if ballisitically a nightmare of inefficiency.
Simple explination.
The .73 (or so) bullet at 1500 f.p.s. sure does kill deer dead as far as you can accurately shoot it.

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 Post subject: re: Shooting Sabots through a Smooth Bore 12G
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:58 am 
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That's a very interesting bullet design....




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