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 Post subject: Primer burn rate chart?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 10:56 pm 
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Do any of you have a chart listing which primers burn at what rates? What I mean is I'm trying to find a list that shows which primers burn hotter (faster?) than others.

Thank you in advance for any help.


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 Post subject: re: Primer burn rate chart?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:14 pm 
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Tom Armbrust has made some primer comparisons here:

http://www.armbrust.acf2.org/primersubs.htm

Accurate Arms publishes this table in its printed load guide:
<center>
<table width="600" border="2" bgcolor="yellow"> <tr> <td colspan="3" align="center" valign="middle"> <b> Primer Comparisons According To Accurate Arms </b> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <b> Maker </b> </td> <td> <b> Designation </b> </td> <td> <b> Comments </b> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <b> CCI-ATK </b> </td> <td> <b> CCI 209 </b> </td> <td> <b> Standard output. </b> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <b> CCI-ATK </b> </td> <td> <b> CCI 209M </b> </td> <td> <b> Magnum primer for hard-to-ignite powders. </b> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <b> Cheddite </b> </td> <td> <b> CHED 209 </b> </td> <td> <b> Standard output. </b> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <b> Federal </b> </td> <td> <b> FED 209A </b> </td> <td> <b> Standard-plus output. However, under certain conditions can produce slightly higher performance. </b> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <b> Fiocchi </b> </td> <td> <b> FIO 616 </b> </td> <td> <b> Standard output, very mild. </b> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <b> Remington </b> </td> <td> <b> 209 </b> </td> <td> <b> Standard output. </b> </td> </tr> <tr> <td> <b> Winchester </b> </td> <td> <b> 209 </b> </td> <td> <b> Standard output. </b> </td> </tr> </table>
</center>
The fact is, none of it really means much because a primer's behavior can change when used in different hulls and loads.

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 Post subject: re: Primer burn rate chart?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:22 pm 
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Junkers88
Primer brisance is a highly un-profected science, and any attempt to extrapolate it from one to the other is a WAG, and can be quite dangerous in certain situations.

Primers have the unwanted ability to act one way with a certain powder, and quite differently with another.

Depending on the particular load, and the exact data it was developed with, and depending on the chamber pressure it developes, experienced reloaders can and do sometimes substitute primers, other than the ones specifically called for.

I for one wish no such tables were available for primer brisance as it intices people to extrapolate data, when they really don't have a clue as to what they are doing.

I will tell you this. Generally speaking, anywhere a W/W W-209 primer is called for, "Generally" you can substitute a Nobel sport, a Fiocchi, a Remingtom 209P, or a CCI 209.

However, to show the difference, if a CCI-209 is called for, probably the W-209 will be too hot, or will raise pressures dramatically.

Stick with the receipe and all will be well. If wanting a cheaper alternative such as the Fiocchi, then use data for the W-209 and sub the Fio. primer.

And NEVER use a Federal 209A or a CCI-209M in any load specifying a different primer. Use them only in loads that specifically specify them.

DLM

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 Post subject: re: Primer burn rate chart?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:19 am 
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Location: Los Angeles, CA
Lyman's reloading guide has a very eye-opening section on substituting primers blindly. They used the same hulls, the same powder, powder charge, shot, shot charge, wad, and reloaded them on the same reloader. The only thing they changed was the primer. The pressure changed dramatically sometimes (8k-13k PSI).

So, the short version is, use the primer recommended in the recipe :)

Cameron

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 Post subject: re: Primer burn rate chart?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:24 am 
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DLM, you wrote:

I for one wish no such tables were available for primer brisance as it intices people to extrapolate data, when they really don't have a clue as to what they are doing.

My question is:
Where have you ever seen a Primer Brisance Table that was published by a powder or primer manufacturer?


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 Post subject: re: Primer burn rate chart?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:55 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:39 pm
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I read somehere that the PMC primer was slightly cooler than winchester but ever so slightly. It was compared against the winchester and won the comparison for consistant burn,etc. against all other primers also. Wish they had not stopped inporting them.


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 Post subject: Re: re: Primer burn rate chart?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:22 am 
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oshowme wrote:
DLM, you wrote:

I for one wish no such tables were available for primer brisance as it intices people to extrapolate data, when they really don't have a clue as to what they are doing.

My question is:
Where have you ever seen a Primer Brisance Table that was published by a powder or primer manufacturer?

I'm sure he — and you — saw the one in my reply above.

It was published on Page 62 of the 2004 Accurate Arms Load Guide and is about as close as you'll find to a primer brisance table, which likely doesn't exist anywhere, since it would be basically meaningless in a practical application.

A primer's behavior changes at least slightly every time the components change.

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 Post subject: re: Primer burn rate chart?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:30 am 
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Case, I know you don't like Cheddite primers, but wish you would include them in your tests. I'm currious about how they line up with Fio's etc. I'd be happy to send you some so you had them to test.

Thanks,
bd


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 Post subject: re: Primer burn rate chart?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:54 am 
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Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:30 am
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Quote:
I will tell you this. Generally speaking, anywhere a W/W W-209 primer is called for, "Generally" you can substitute a Nobel sport, a Fiocchi, a Remingtom 209P, or a CCI 209.


DLM......

I'm curious as to where...if you know....Cheddite primers fit into the equation? Technically.

I find it rather disappointing that very few people want to talk about Cheddite primers other than to attribute the ruin of firing pins to them....or to call them down because they're made in France. :roll:

Does anyone know where reloading data can be found that utilizes Cheddite primers?

The fact of the matter is that they are out there in the marketplace....many many people are using them....yet very little if any reloading data can be found for them. At least I haven't seen a whole lot anyway. If someone can direct me to some good info I'd appreciate it.

There certainly aren't any loads on the Alliant website that I can find. And very few people on this reloading forum want to even talk about them other than to chuck crap at them for being made in France.

When I started using them I had to personally contact Cheddite directly in France to ask them how their primers compared to Win 209's because I couldn't find any info on them anywhere....there certainly wasn't any info on the powder companies' websites. And I'm pleased to say that unlike many North American businesses one tries to contact.....I got an almost immediate response from them.

And they recommended that their primers could be used in any recipe that called for a Win 209 primer....BUT....to use .5 grains less powder. And that's exactly what I've been doing for the past 4-5 years and some 50K-60K shells in all 4 gauges without any problems whatsoever.

Now.....if anyone has any legitimate info to contradict what I've been doing with these Cheddites, and why I shouldn't be using them as I have been, I'd sure like to hear it. Technical reasons that is......not simply because they're "made in France".

The fact remains that there are many people out there using many thousands of Cheddite primers yet trying to find good info about these damn primers is next to impossible.

I personally think that there should be more talk about them and more info about them passed around....be it by individuals in this reloading forum who might have good info on them....or the powder companies whose products we're using with these Cheddite primers.

If the Alliant rep who occasionally frequents this forum happens to stumble across my little rant here....I've love to hear why their website has recipes for almost every other primer out there but does not include recipes with Cheddite primers. Is there some good technical reason Cheddites should not be used with Alliant powders?

DLM...or perhaps Case...if either of you have any good technical data on Cheddite primers, I'd sure like to hear it....or perhaps you could just point me to it and I'll go read it for myself.

Thanks.


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 Post subject: re: Primer burn rate chart?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:19 am 
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Old Vet,
First let me state that my answers and statements here are derived from personal experiences, not hearsay, or prompted by prejudice in any way.

The complaint that the primers were being pierced and resulted in gas cutting the noses off firing pins is very real and completely true. Saw it happen to an individual on my regular Skeet squad a few years ago, on a Browning Superposed. Had to replace the Firing pins 3 times within 1 year, while using Cheddites. After the third replacement, went back to Win. primers and the problem went away, and hasn't occurred again in several years.

This problem was supposedly addressed by the manufacturer, and maybe it has been, I do not know, but because of this experience, I have never used them.

Brisance wise, they are a tad hotter than the W-209's, and as stated above, were advised to be used with data listing the W-209 primer and then reducing the powder drop by 1/2 grain.

This has worked quite well for years, so I see no problem as far as application goes.

Incidently, I am seeing at least some reference to Cheddites and Fiocchi primers in various reloading books. Hodgdon has a few listings in their reloaders manual, to name one.

Probably as time goes on, and the Euro primers are used by more and more shooters, that data will start showing up. We have to remember, it costs big bucks to test additional primers in all loads that exist, and while powder makers are pretty good at providing this information, I'm sure that they would want to be sure of the necessity of it, before making those expenditures.

So, unless you have old stock, the new lots of Cheddite's may be free of the piercing problem, and following the 1/2 grain reduction directive from data using the W-209's, should be completely safe. I've never heard of pressure problems using the Cheddites, when this method was followed.

DLM

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 Post subject: Re: re: Primer burn rate chart?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:32 pm 
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bel_dad wrote:
Case, I know you don't like Cheddite primers, but wish you would include them in your tests. I'm currious about how they line up with Fio's etc. I'd be happy to send you some so you had them to test.

Old Vet wrote:
DLM...or perhaps Case...if either of you have any good technical data on Cheddite primers, I'd sure like to hear it....or perhaps you could just point me to it and I'll go read it for myself.

I think DLM has pretty well explained the situation and provided some sensible guidelines.

I'm not wild about boosting the French economy, but that's really a minor consideration, since I've happily bought more than 80,000 Fiocchi primers, also made by the French, at extremely attractive prices.

But I have a question of my own:

Why are you so favorable to Cheddite primers, which definitely have caused burned firing pins at least in the past, and cost considerably more than Fiocchis or NobelSports?

In my view, that simply flies in the face of smart consumer logic.

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 Post subject: re: Primer burn rate chart?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 3:53 pm 
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Case, I bought them because the price was good, and so was the availability at the time. I have since shot 3-4 thousand, with out a mark on my firing pin. They work for me...

I seem to like experimenting... I found the 9000gn a great 410 loader, appreciate it every time I use it. It is my favorite of my MEC loaders. My Browning 525 didn't work out so well. :lol: But times change, products change... The Cheddites have been just fine in my experience. I can not attest to what problems have been found with them in the past, because I have never had a problem with them.

Sometimes factories find an error in their product and fix it... sometimes they do not. I would think to be knowledgeable in an area, one would have to keep an eye on the changes in product over the years. Just as Ruger once made fine shotguns, and now, they are not so good. As once AA's were the cat’s pajamas in 12g loading, and now they are not... Leaning on what was, will leave one out on a limb at some point, as things change under foot.

Cheddites use to have a problem. I'm interested in your opinion of how they perform today. How about testing some and seeing how they do? What's the worst that can happen... you have to replace a couple of $8 firing pins? First hand knowledge is good knowledge.

bd


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 Post subject: re: Primer burn rate chart?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:40 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:30 am
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Quote:
Why are you so favorable to Cheddite primers, which definitely have caused burned firing pins at least in the past, and cost considerably more than Fiocchis or NobelSports?

In my view, that simply flies in the face of smart consumer logic.


Believe it or not Case, the main reason I do use Cheddites IS economics. My supplier of components handles 2 brands of primers...Winchester & Cheddite. Difference in cost was $6.00/1000 last time I bought some. Unfortunately we don't have ready access to any other brands around here.

As for them burning firing pins....I can neither confirm nor deny this since I've never personally seen it. I'm not suggesting it hasn't happened to some folks somewhere along the way. I've just never seen it around here.

I belong to a small Club with about 60 members...95+% of whom reload...and I don't know one single person around here using anything but the Cheddites. As I mentioned, I've gone through some 50K-60K of them now and I've not had any trouble and I've not heard of one single problem from anyone else. So that's all I can go by here.

Hearing and reading about the risks of substituting one primer for another makes me wish there was more technical information regarding the Cheddites in print somewhere.

Quote:
Lyman's reloading guide has a very eye-opening section on substituting primers blindly.


Quote:
They used the same hulls, the same powder, powder charge, shot, shot charge, wad, and reloaded them on the same reloader. The only thing they changed was the primer. The pressure changed dramatically sometimes (8k-13k PSI).


Quote:
Primers have the unwanted ability to act one way with a certain powder, and quite differently with another.


Quote:
The fact is, none of it really means much because a primer's behavior can change when used in different hulls and loads


It's my guess that there are quite a few people out there who are using Cheddites and it's statements like these above that lead me to believe there should be more published data regarding their usage out there than there currently is....which is next to nil.

I'll continue using them now based upon my experience with them over the last 4 or 5 years. But I'd feel a little more comfortable about it all if I could see my loads on the Alliant website in their tables is all.


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 Post subject: re: Primer burn rate chart?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:48 pm 
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Case

I don't see how the terms "standard output, standard plus output , magnum primer and standard output, very mild" listed in the table you posted relates to Brisance.

You also stated that the term brisance is "... basically meaningless in a practical application."

Is there an impractical application where the term "brisance" would be appropriate?


DLM wrote:

"Brisance wise, they are a tad hotter than the W-209's, and as stated above..."


Do the manufacturers of primers measure the "brisance" of their primers? If so, how is it done?


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 Post subject: re: Primer burn rate chart?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:54 pm 
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Last edited by jtclays on Mon Apr 26, 2010 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: re: Primer burn rate chart?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:55 pm 
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oshowme wrote:

Do the manufacturers of primers measure the "brisance" of their primers? If so, how is it done?


No, not really. Brisance refers to shattering effect, and is not particularly useful.

Flame temperature, flame front, and gas generation are the primary attributes of a primer, along with flash hole in a battery cup anvil primer.


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 Post subject: re: Primer burn rate chart?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:58 pm 
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Old Vet,
I'm in the same boat. When I bought my last case of Cheddites, they were some $8-9 cheaper than the 'name brands'. Fiocchi's? nope, not available. Nobel Sports? Only if I wanted to drive an hour and a half (and pay the $3/gallon on gas). So, nope, not readily available.

I've not shot near as many as you have, I'm somewhere between the 15 and 20K primers. These were bought a year back when I was still in Indiana. Not ONE primer burn through for me, nor for either of my Hoosier buddies that load with them. I too drop the powder charge by 1/2 grain since I read about it on here and a couple of other sources.

It's rather a pain not to be able to find different loadings that use them, so until I see something definitive in print (online?) about them, from a reliable source (such as Case and others on here) about some of the different loads, I'm not going to change.
Now, when I run OUT of them, I might change to another brand at that time, IF I can't find the Chedders.

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 Post subject: Re: re: Primer burn rate chart?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 7:31 pm 
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jtclays wrote:
Old Vet, I have to agree with you, sorta. I hate to go against DL and Case, and I'm really not. Cheds have worked for me, and I've passed that along to bel dad a few times. They just haven't caused a problem for me as far as firing them. My ONLY compliant with them, and the reason I've switched to Fio's is the box just doesn't fit in a standard MEC tray. I have an old 9000 primer tray, and use Sizemasters in the lower gauge. I've sworn off the tray tipping/jostlling to get the Ched's in the tray. Never had a problem with burning pins and have looked for it quite awhile now. I don't shoot the volume these guys do, but I put a few thousands rounds down range, with no probs. Maybe it's fixed, maybe not. I can tell you if I get the bigger tray, I'll use them again. But, like Case mentioned, the Fio's are cheaper, and they work. JT

If your buddies tell you that your loads sound funny and the temperatures are low that day, it might be due to the Fio primers. A very reputable source, well respected on this board, has told me that they and/or Promo powder are suspect and prone to pooters once the temp gets below 30F. We seldom get to shoot at that temp here in the Tn. Valley, so I don't know, but I can listen! :o

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 Post subject: Re: re: Primer burn rate chart?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:20 pm 
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oshowme wrote:
Case

I don't see how the terms "standard output, standard plus output , magnum primer and standard output, very mild" listed in the table you posted relates to Brisance.

It doesn't and I never said it did. I simply posted the table verbatim as it was printed in the Accurate Arms Load Guide.

You can draw whatever conclusions you want from it — or none at all.

Quote:
You also stated that the term brisance is "... basically meaningless in a practical application."

Is there an impractical application where the term "brisance" would be appropriate?

Brisance: The rapidity with which an explosive develops its maximum pressure is a measure of the quality known as brisance. A brisant explosive is one in which the maximum pressure is attained so rapidly that the effect is to shatter any material in contact with it and all surrounding material.

In my view, it has nothing whatsoever to do with small arms primers, and I said as much above.

bel_dad wrote:
How about testing some and seeing how they do? What's the worst that can happen... you have to replace a couple of $8 firing pins? First hand knowledge is good knowledge.

I have no way to test primers except by chronographing specific loads, which would mostly apply only to those loads. I seriously doubt that would have much universal value to anyone.

I have no access to Cheddite primers, and it would cost a $20 hazmat fee for you to ship me a dozen or a case of them. It's not worth it.

And there's a lot more to opening up the receiver of an O/U shotgun and replacing firing pins than just spending $8 apiece on them. You're not going to get firing pins for a Winchester 101 for $8 either.

Old Vet wrote:
Believe it or not Case, the main reason I do use Cheddites IS economics. My supplier of components handles 2 brands of primers...Winchester & Cheddite. Difference in cost was $6.00/1000 last time I bought some. Unfortunately we don't have ready access to any other brands around here.

Well, that makes sense for you.

But for me, I have to buy all my primers mailorder and there's no way I'm spending more money for Cheddites when I can get Fiocchis and NobelSports cheaper.

Besides, I've got well over 100,000 primers on hand, so I won't be needing any anytime soon.

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 Post subject: Re: re: Primer burn rate chart?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:32 pm 
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Case said

I'm not wild about boosting the French economy, but that's really a minor consideration, since I've happily bought more than 80,000 Fiocchi primers, also made by the French, at extremely attractive prices.

Case you might want to research that statement, because I'm 1000% sure that Fiocchi Primers are made in Italy, not France.

DLM

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