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 Post subject: Gas operated vs. recoil operated
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 3:07 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:24 pm
Posts: 25
Location: Virginia
Most of the semi-automatic shotguns these days seem to be gas operated vs. recoil operated. Is there supposed to be some advantage to gas operated?

I have a Remington model 11 (recoil operated) that's been in the family nearly 50 years, and it's had parts replaced only once.

What guns besides Benelli are recoil operated?


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 Post subject: Re: Gas operated vs. recoil operated
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 4:21 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 3:43 pm
Posts: 237
Franchi and Beretta sell a recoil operated one. They both have pros and cons. I own both types. I prefer the recoil operated one (Browning FN Light 20) for upland hunting because of its light weight. For sporting clays I use my Beretta 391 Gold because of the soft way is shoots and how it handles. In the end, It comes down to preference.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas operated vs. recoil operated
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 4:52 pm 
JimmyP --

I went to the Beretta website and here's what they say:

"The innovative design of the AL391 Urika gas-compensating valve has taken the operating limits of the gas-operated shotgun to new levels."

That does not sound like recoil operated to me -- am I missing something?


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 Post subject: Re: Gas operated vs. recoil operated
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:06 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 1:48 pm
Posts: 439
Beretta Pintail ( ES 100 ) is recoil operated.

391 is gas


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 Post subject: Re: Gas operated vs. recoil operated
PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2004 7:09 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 3:43 pm
Posts: 237
He's right, I assumed that most people knew the Pintail is recoil and the 39x series are gas.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas operated vs. recoil operated
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:48 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed May 21, 2003 1:11 am
Posts: 49
Location: MD
I have a Winchester SX2 (gas operated) and my father has a Benelli Super Black Eagle (recoil operated). The main differences I've noticed are that my gun is noticeably heavier than his (probably a lb or two), has much less recoil (think 44mag vs 9mm), and seems to require a little more cleaning (gas piston, etc.). The Benelli definitely has its advantages, but after shooting 4 rounds of trap (100 shells), my shoulder isn't sore :wink: . My gun is also less than half the price of the Benelli.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas operated vs. recoil operated
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 2:36 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:38 am
Posts: 1489
Location: San Jose, CA
nick wrote:
I have a Winchester SX2 (gas operated) and my father has a Benelli Super Black Eagle (recoil operated). The main differences I've noticed are that my gun is noticeably heavier than his (probably a lb or two), has much less recoil (think 44mag vs 9mm), and seems to require a little more cleaning (gas piston, etc.). The Benelli definitely has its advantages, but after shooting 4 rounds of trap (100 shells), my shoulder isn't sore :wink: . My gun is also less than half the price of the Benelli.


The SX2 shoots great. I've been shooting a buddies and it's a dream. Not much recoil and easy to swing.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas operated vs. recoil operated
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 10:19 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 8:47 am
Posts: 129
Location: China, Michigan
Can someone fill us in on the operational advantages and disadvantages to both the gas operated and the recoil operated. I am considering a new shotgun, but with all the choices it is a daunting task. OK it not daunting its actually fun, but I do want to make an informed choice. I am not looking for a recommendation of a specific gun, just information on these 2 systems.

Is one of these systems superior to the other when you are using a variety of types of loads?

My main use for this shotgun will be clays, but I anticipate some bird and bunny hunting.

Thanks

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Safety is more then a little button on your shotgun. Its an attitude.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas operated vs. recoil operated
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 11:25 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2003 9:42 am
Posts: 385
Location: Southern Illinois
One of the benifits of a recoil opperation is its simplicity. I had a Benelli Executive that was so simple in its disign that I wondered why they were not more popular. After shooting it for a while I discovered it kicked harder than an 870. I put a counter coil on it and then it would not cycle properly. Gas gun do feel softer to shoot but need a little more cleaning to keep smooth.

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 Post subject: Re: Gas operated vs. recoil operated
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 11:54 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2004 1:48 pm
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I prefer the advantage of the recoil reduction. The extra cleaning... well thats just plain fun. noting better than sitnig in the garage with a cracked beer and the smell of Hoops 9.

Weight will very with model. so don't think gas are heavier.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas operated vs. recoil operated
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 12:03 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Thu Nov 06, 2003 1:54 pm
Posts: 69
Location: south central Pennsylvania
In addition to everything stated so far, the gas operated autoloaders are the faster cycling. Not always a good thing :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Gas operated vs. recoil operated
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 12:05 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:24 pm
Posts: 25
Location: Virginia
JimmyP --

Yeah, I haven't kept up with the gun world.

I have a 12 ga. Remington Model 11, a 20 ga. Browning Automatic-5, and a .410 Remington Model 11-48. They are all recoil operated, and infrequently need "take down" cleaning. None have been a recoil headache (the 12 ga. does have a Cutts Compensator).

The 12 ga. can shoot all 2¾ loads without problem -- the gun has a friction ring that can be set for heavier or lighter loads. Actually, Federal shells have been a problem and I don't shoot them anymore. But when one of those shells hung up, all I needed to do was push the barrel down into the receiver, and upon release the shell would eject. The main drawback to the gun is that it's a bear to fully clean, which fortunately isn't too often. I guess the real difficulty is getting it back on the stock, which is very trying -- hard to imagine why that should be so if you've never done it.

I'm just looking at getting another 12 ga. at this point, maybe for my 23 year-old son.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas operated vs. recoil operated
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:10 pm 
Shooting Instructor
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Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:02 pm
Posts: 10
Location: Round Hill VA
I shoot skeet with a Franchi 612 VS. This is one of the lightest and softest shooting 12 ga. shotguns on the market. It will shoot 3 in. and 2 3/4 in. shells with equal ease. I sometimes down load my skeet loads to save money on powder. This gun has never failed to cycle when both my friends Rem 1100 and A5 couldn't handle the light loads. Recently, one of my friends tht I talked into buying one of these guns, wanted to see if my claims of reliability were valid. He shot 1380 super light (11 gr. of Clays) loads thru his before it failed to cycle (and it still fired fine). He put factory 2 3/4 dr. eq. light target loads in and it kept shooting and cycling. I've ever put 2000 factory rounds thru mine before cleaning it. That's only 2 1/2 mo. of skeet shooting for me but more than most bird shooters shoot in 10 years.

I'm no expert but I tell everyone that one of the best buys on the market today is a Franchi 612 or 620 VS series shotgun at around $500.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas operated vs. recoil operated
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:13 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 4:02 pm
Posts: 10
Location: Round Hill VA
Sorry, forgot to say that the 612 and 620 VS Franchi are gas operated.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas operated vs. recoil operated
PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:22 pm 
OK, here's my take on the different operating systems. By the way I own at least one each. There are more than two systems. They are as follows.
Gas, Long Recoil, and Short Recoil/Inertia Recoil.

Gas guns in most cases will kick less and cycle a wider range of shells. The action works from gas pressure off the fired shell. That pressure is re-routed thru the gas piston. The piston moves backwards against the action bars/arms to cycle the action. The bolt then moves forward from a spring behind the bolt. As the bolt moves forward it picks up a shell and chambers it. Examples are Browning "Golds", Beretta "390-391's" Remington "11-87", and Winchester "Super X-2".

Long Recoil guns usally require less maintenance and are less versatile. They have thin forearms compared to gas guns.After the shot is fired, the barrel moves back with the bolt from the recoil. Once they are all the way back, the barrel shoots foward of the bolt because of the heavy spring on the magizine tube. The bolt then begins to move foward from tension of the smaller spring behind the bolt.The bolt in turn picks up the next shell and chambers it. Examples are Browning "Auto-5's", and Franchi "AL-48's".

Short Recoil/Inertia Recoil guns share similar characteristics to the Long Recoil guns. They are a little more versatile though. They work of the recoil of the shot. When the gun is fired the bolt moves foward slightly and compresses a heavy spring it the bolt. The bolt is then thrown backwards ejecting the fired shell. The bolt is then moved foward under spring tension by the spring behind the bolt. It picks up a shell and chambers it. This action is similar to many semi-auto 22's. Examples are Benelli's (Almost all models), Beretta "Pintail/ES100", and Stoger "2000".
I don't notice any difference in recoil between the three. I guess I'm not recoil senesetive or just a glutten. Todays gas guns need less maintenence to fuction properly than their predecessors did. The weight difference is very small between the three in some models. Gas guns do weigh more on average and do have fatter forearms due to the gas pistons. For me as long it's a semi-auto 12 gauge I'm happy.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas operated vs. recoil operated
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 10:30 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2004 10:24 pm
Posts: 25
Location: Virginia
Worc --

Thanks for that informative explanation.

Simple maintenance is certainly appealing, but I don't know why you say less versatile for the recoil operated. My Remington model 11 does well with all loads as long as the friction ring is set right, and no change is necessary unless you're using vastly different loads. But, it does use only 2¾ shells. And I've used slugs and skeet loads with my Browning Auto-5 without any problem -- same with the Remington 11-48.

One thing I do know for certain -- if ever a shell doesn't eject, it's no problem to get it out because all you need to do is push the barrel down into the receiver and voilà! BTW, do the other gun types have a more difficult problem extracting cartridges that don't eject?


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 Post subject: Re: Gas operated vs. recoil operated
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 12:41 pm 
Jack777, The Long Recoil operated shot guns are less versatile only slightly. Refurring to the first paragraph of you last post. Changing or removing the brass ring on the magazine tube for different loads. This is one of the reasons you don't see them much anymore. Most people today don't want to mess around with a gun so it will fuction for a specific load. Most guns of the other two actions can digest shells of different power and length without changing anything. To my knowledge there has not been any Long Recoil guns made for the 3 1/2" 12 gauge shell either. At least any that enjoyed any type of success. I have a Browning "Auto-5 Mag 12" and a Franchi "AL 48" and love both. The A-5 has two brass rings because it takes 3" shells. Sometimes I have to remove a ring to cycle light loads.
As far as jams. I only need to pull the bolt handle to clear the jam. This is true Whether It's Gas, Long Recoil, or Inertia operated. I don't recall ever needing to push the barrel in to clear a jam on either my A-5 or AL 48. I can't say that one action jams more than the other. The older gas designs might be an exception.
The worst jam I have ever had was on the AL 48. My buddy was holding it by the barrel with the stock on the ground. He also loves this gun and knows how it works. He pushed the barrel down an inch or so into the receiver. When he did this it was enough to release a shell out of the magazine. It was nowhere near enough to eject the chambered shell. The result was an unfired shell in the chamber and one wedged between the bolt and floor plate. The action was jammed solid. I ended up taking off the barrel and removing the trigger group to clear the jam.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas operated vs. recoil operated
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:29 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2003 8:47 am
Posts: 129
Location: China, Michigan
Great information guys. This is why I love this place. One more question. How long does it take to clean a gas powered semi? And to clarify my question. I should ask how long will it take me. Although I am sure some out there are proud of how fast they can dissassemble, clean and reassemble. I want to know roughly how long a rank beginner will need to clean the average amount of gunk from the average gas powered semi.

Thanks again

_________________
Safety is more then a little button on your shotgun. Its an attitude.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas operated vs. recoil operated
PostPosted: Fri Jan 16, 2004 1:50 pm 
All things being equal, ie. cleaning the barrel, actions, and trigger group. The Inertia will be the quickest followed by the Long Recoil and lastly the Gas. It should only be a matter of 5-10 minutes or so. Gas operated guns are not all that complicated. Yes, the do have a few more parts. On gas guns you'll ned to clean he hole/s from the barrel that operate the piston. Todays gas designs need less cleaning than older models. I just did an acid test on my Franchi 612. I wanted to see how long it would go before any malfuctions. It saw all kinds of junk in the receiver and action. It went just under 1,000 rounds and this was right out of the box. My Browning Gold 3 1/2" only gets cleaned a few times during the long Michigan waterfowl season.


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 Post subject: Re: Gas operated vs. recoil operated
PostPosted: Sat Jan 17, 2004 1:20 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2004 9:03 pm
Posts: 4
Location: Jasper, Indiana
While it doesn't seem prudent for me to point out some obvious points between gas operated guns and recoil operated guns, I think a small point has escaped everyone's P.O.V. I noticed that the barrel on recoil operated guns assists in ejecting the shell. This must mean the barrel moves. If the barrel moves, that isn't a good thing is it? I'm sure the engineers have allowed for this, as recoil operated guns are still being produced. But, a gas operated system seems to be a better engineered system in my opinion.


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