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 Post subject: .410 vs. 20 gauge for home defense?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:22 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:59 am
Posts: 8
Already have 12 guage...considering smaller shotgun for wife, models, variants, and brands open for any input.




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 Post subject: re: .410 vs. 20 gauge for home defense?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:38 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 2:17 am
Posts: 1176
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Actually neither, I'd suggest another 12 gauge with perhaps low recoil buckshot rounds.

Obviously then if it were between .410 and 20 gauge, 20 gauge hands down. I think .410 00 buckshot rounds only have like 3 pellets.

Cameron

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 Post subject: re: .410 vs. 20 gauge for home defense?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 5:26 am 
Presentation Grade
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Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:18 pm
Posts: 607
Location: Flatwoods, KY
If your looking for home defence for the Wife, I'd get her a pistol and take her out and practice. This is just my opinion, mind you, but I'd rather have a good .38SPL than a .410 in my hand.

Matt


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 Post subject: re: .410 vs. 20 gauge for home defense?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:34 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:16 pm
Posts: 4387
Most women are already over-gunned with claws and mouth. A gun would be cruel and unusual overkill.

20ga 1100 Skeet Gun #3B


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 Post subject: re: .410 vs. 20 gauge for home defense?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:44 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:29 am
Posts: 15
Location: Windsor Ontario
Why not a 16 Gauge, not as big of a kick, and cheap as hell.


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 Post subject: re: .410 vs. 20 gauge for home defense?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:58 am 
Presentation Grade
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Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:18 pm
Posts: 607
Location: Flatwoods, KY
the 16 gauge I have kicks like a mule...don't try to start her out with a model 12 16 if she does shoot one! An 870 16 would be a better choice


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 Post subject: re: .410 vs. 20 gauge for home defense?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:05 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 9:34 am
Posts: 2212
Location: North Central, Washington
Winchester makes a 5 pellet 000 buckshot load for the 410 and Sellier and Bellot makes one with 5 00 pellets. While not the ideal HD load it would be adequate to stop a person easily. Either load would inflict a lot of damage at close range.


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 Post subject: re: .410 vs. 20 gauge for home defense?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:14 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2003 12:52 am
Posts: 4773
My wife uses her 20 ga Beretta 390 with #3 buckshot for home defense. It is a gun she is familiar with and it has shown itself to be very reliable. A gas operated auto would be a good choice in 20 ga as they are pretty easy on the shoulder when shooting it compared to a pump gun (one MUST practice before hand to gain familiarity and determine reliability) and ammo prices are camparatively inexpensive. The .410 would be a distant second choice due to ammo cost and availability but would much preferred over a handgun of any type. Most of this is due to ease of shooting and hit likelihood. It is much, much easier to gain and maintain proficiency with a long gun than any handgun. Under stress, the ability to hit with a target is greatly reduced and it is even greater when using a handgun. This has been soundly documented so often and for so long that it is surprising peopel still think otherwise. A handgun is better when searching but if one knows there is someone else in the house, it is better to hole up, call the police, and wait for them to arrive than to go looking for trouble. At close range (which a home defense situation is), the .410 will have much more energy than a 38 Spl and produce a wound that will be more than sufficient to stop the problem. Recoil issues would also be pretty much no problem regardless of action type.


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 Post subject: re: .410 vs. 20 gauge for home defense?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:37 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:35 am
Posts: 566
practice and having the correct mind set is more important than what type of gun. If you don't have either of these, a telephone is better.


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 Post subject: re: .410 vs. 20 gauge for home defense?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:39 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2006 7:59 pm
Posts: 4777
410 is too small for home defence. Check out the box o truth. he has done tests on the 410 and penatration is very poor. I like the pistol, glock 40... or 20g. Leave the 410 for the skeet field.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

bd


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 Post subject: re: .410 vs. 20 gauge for home defense?
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:41 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:09 pm
Posts: 296
Location: Colorado
For defensive purposes I'd let her use the 12ga- If she has to deploy it to defend herself she will never even notice the recoil and if she needs to practice with it I think even she could handle the the recoil from light target loads for practice. Plus, if she was in fear for her life and had to actually shoot somebody it's hard to beat the performance of a good 12ga buckshot load.


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 Post subject: Re: re: .410 vs. 20 gauge for home defense?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 2:33 am 
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Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:59 am
Posts: 8
ray1970 wrote:
For defensive purposes I'd let her use the 12ga- If she has to deploy it to defend herself she will never even notice the recoil and if she needs to practice with it I think even she could handle the the recoil from light target loads for practice. Plus, if she was in fear for her life and had to actually shoot somebody it's hard to beat the performance of a good 12ga buckshot load.


What would be an example of a "light target load" for myself i am basically more of a handgun guy and have the 12 gauge for home protection so I don't know much about shotgun ammo.


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 Post subject: Re: re: .410 vs. 20 gauge for home defense?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 11:22 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:09 pm
Posts: 296
Location: Colorado
blackstarninja wrote:

What would be an example of a "light target load" for myself i am basically more of a handgun guy and have the 12 gauge for home protection so I don't know much about shotgun ammo.


Anything suitable for clay targets or dove/quail should be plenty light- something with 1 to 1 1/8 oz of #8 or 9 shot with the lowest dram equilivant you can find. Basically the "cheap" loads you find at Wal-mart on sale for $3.99 a box should fit the bill quite well. She can practice with these all she wants without beating herself up and load the gun with whatever you want for home defense. Like i said earlier if she ever has to use it defend herself she will be so scared/nervous/adrenalined that she won't even notice the recoil. Besides, whats a little bruise on the shoulder if it saves your life.


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 Post subject: re: .410 vs. 20 gauge for home defense?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 24, 2007 8:56 pm 
Presentation Grade
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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:33 am
Posts: 839
Location: Atlanta GA
I can't see any reason to choose the 410 over the 20 Ga, but I'd take either over any pistol. The (5) .38 cal buckshot from the 410 shell is a formidable load at the distances inside a home.

I carry a pistol, but if I have access to shotgun it's going to be first choice.

Weagle


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 Post subject: re: .410 vs. 20 gauge for home defense?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 1:50 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:59 am
Posts: 8
What exactly are .410's designed for and why does mossberg, and Taurus i.e. "Judge.410/.45lc" advocate them for home defense if they aren't very good at penetration? I am assuming they lack the stopping power of a 12 gauge and just penetrate a little (just enough to annoy an attacker, but not stop them)...


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 Post subject: re: .410 vs. 20 gauge for home defense?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 6:17 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 7:16 pm
Posts: 4387
The 410 was designed for birds, but is mostly used today for skeet. The "Judge" and other such nonsense will always be sold as long as there are uneducated buyers.

The 410 payload can only be pushed so fast, but it's just as fast as any other gauge of target velocity, so in that sense, they do not lack in penetration, only in payload. At 410 velocities with buckshot at indoor ditances of 20 feet or so I would think it will completely penetrate a human.

The 410 is OK to fart around with, but it's pretty stupid to plan on using one to protect yourself when there are clearly better choices.


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 Post subject: re: .410 vs. 20 gauge for home defense?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2007 7:25 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jun 09, 2003 12:52 am
Posts: 4773
The "Judge" and other such handguns were designed to be an alternative to standard handguns with shot cartridges for use on snakes. A secondary thought was these guns could be a versatile accessory in "survival" type situations. The use of .410 loads in these guns for self defense against larger creatures was not the intended use. Mossberg markets their "security" .410 for those who are unable to take the punishment of the larger bore guns; i.e. the elderly and women. The lesser recoil and "smallness" of the gun many find to be less threatening. I don't know if I agree with the sales pitch but then I haven't done the market research either.
The energy and penetration levels of any pellet is a product of its weight and velocity and is totally independent of the size hole it comes out of. A 00 buckshot pellet out of a .410 at 1200 (the 410 buckshot loads can reach this velocity easily) is no less lethal than the same pellet coming out of a 12 ga at the same speed. The difference in number of pellets is much greater which makes the aggregate energy level swing far in favor of the larger bores.
I also agree that it is better to use a larger bore (and pellet size) if needed to defend one's self but being able to handle the firearm is more important. That is why my wife uses a 20 ga gas operated semi-auto, it is light recoiling and fires a fair sized payload of large-ish shot. It is also a gun that she is very familiar with as it is her upland gun as well as her first competition gun. It is also the smaller version of her competition 12 ga gun which further reinforces the familiarity. If a person is not comfortable with and not able to use a larger gauge shotgun well, then the .410 is the better choice.


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 Post subject: Re: re: .410 vs. 20 gauge for home defense?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:23 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 23, 2007 1:59 am
Posts: 8
uglydog wrote:
The "Judge" and other such handguns were designed to be an alternative to standard handguns with shot cartridges for use on snakes. A secondary thought was these guns could be a versatile accessory in "survival" type situations. The use of .410 loads in these guns for self defense against larger creatures was not the intended use. Mossberg markets their "security" .410 for those who are unable to take the punishment of the larger bore guns; i.e. the elderly and women. The lesser recoil and "smallness" of the gun many find to be less threatening. I don't know if I agree with the sales pitch but then I haven't done the market research either.
The energy and penetration levels of any pellet is a product of its weight and velocity and is totally independent of the size hole it comes out of. A 00 buckshot pellet out of a .410 at 1200 (the 410 buckshot loads can reach this velocity easily) is
no less lethal than the same pellet coming out of a 12 ga at the same speed. The difference in number of pellets is much greater which makes the aggregate energy level swing far in favor of the larger bores.
I also agree that it is better to use a larger bore (and pellet size) if needed to defend one's self but being able to handle the firearm is more important. That is why my wife uses a 20 ga gas operated semi-auto, it is light recoiling and fires a fair sized payload of large-ish shot. It is also a gun that she is very familiar with as it is her upland gun as well as her first competition gun. It is also the smaller version of her competition 12 ga gun which further reinforces the familiarity. If a person is not comfortable with and not able to use a larger gauge shotgun well, then the .410 is the better choice.


What is the 20 gauge your wife uses?


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 Post subject: re: .410 vs. 20 gauge for home defense?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 2:47 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2006 3:11 pm
Posts: 587
Hi , I watched a show about 3 years ago on home defense and what was said that just the sound of a pump gun chambering would scare off 95% of any intruder in your home and that was the % they used 95%. So I pesonally think a pump shotgun being a 12/20/410 preferably the 12/20 loaded with a #5 shot fired at 5 to 10 yds or CLOSER will be plenty of firepwer. But I think the KEY thing here is the PUMPchambering to avoid a confrontationwhich I would not want my wife to have.


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 Post subject: re: .410 vs. 20 gauge for home defense?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 8:16 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:25 pm
Posts: 726
20ga and get it done!!




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