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 Post subject: 3/4 oz 12 ga loads using Greendot?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:55 pm 
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Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:18 pm
Posts: 47
Location: Central Virginia
Does anyone have experience reloading 12 ga (STS, Nitro 27, Gun Club, Rem black, WWAA compression 1 piece and new 2 piece style hulls) in 3/4 oz loads? I use Win 209 primers, Claybuster or DR 7/8 oz wads in the 7/8 oz load but wonder if this can be reduced down to a 3/4 oz load. I would appreciate your recipes. Also, I would appreciate powder suggestions, if superior to Greendot, for these reduced shot loads. Thanks in advance for the expert advise usually provided on this internet site. Terry


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 Post subject: Re: 3/4 oz 12 ga loads using Greendot?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:08 pm 
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smlake wrote:
Does anyone have experience reloading 12 ga (STS, Nitro 27, Gun Club, Rem black, WWAA compression 1 piece and new 2 piece style hulls) in 3/4 oz loads? I use Win 209 primers, Claybuster or DR 7/8 oz wads in the 7/8 oz load but wonder if this can be reduced down to a 3/4 oz load. I would appreciate your recipes. Also, I would appreciate powder suggestions, if superior to Greendot, for these reduced shot loads. Thanks in advance for the expert advise usually provided on this internet site. Terry

I have been using the Rem hulls for 3/4 oz loads using the DR xxl-1 pink wads and they assemble great. I use Promo and suggest that you use a faster powder( any of the fastest powders) than Green Dot for better performance. I use the NobelSport primers. I use the same charge as suggested for 7/8 loads. They crush the targets, even when I don't shoot in the right place :wink:

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 Post subject: re: 3/4 oz 12 ga loads using Greendot?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:47 pm 
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Claybuster's CB0178-12 and Down Range's XXL Pink both have the same shot cup floor to base bottom height.

Either works perfectly, often with none or only very minor press adjustments.

You should use a faster powder than Green Dot, such as Promo, Red Dot or Titewad, somewhere around 17 grains of which is plenty adequate.

Use any standard (non-magnum) primer.

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 Post subject: re: 3/4 oz 12 ga loads using Greendot?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 3:52 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 12:19 pm
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Location: Devils Lake, ND
Yup. I'm loading a 3/4oz load in Gun Clubs, Rem Black hulls, STS's, Win AA's, Rem Light Eights, etc. I'm running 16.9 grains of Red Dot, 3/4oz of #9 shot, either a Rem209P or Win209 primer depending on the hull and a DRM XXL Pink wad and they work wonderfully. Almost no recoil through my 6lb O/U and when I do my part the clays just sort of evaporate. :D

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 Post subject: re: 3/4 oz 12 ga loads using Greendot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:31 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:18 pm
Posts: 47
Location: Central Virginia
I really do appreciate each of your replys. I am amazed at the expertise of the users of this site. I will certainly try your recipes. Terry


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 Post subject: re: 3/4 oz 12 ga loads using Greendot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 2:38 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:29 am
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Location: Maine
I've had no trouble using GD with sub-1200 fps 7/8 oz in the 12, but was not successful getting it to work with 3/4 oz. I suppose you could try some of the higher charge weights listed on the Alliant site for fast "International" 7/8 oz loads. I just don't know why you'd want the added recoil associated with 1400 fps plus loads.

Sam


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 Post subject: re: 3/4 oz 12 ga loads using Greendot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:08 pm 
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What we are not seeming to get across, is the fact that in the 12 ga., the lighter the payload, the faster burning the powder must be to get good efficiency.

It's just silly to even try to use Red Dot in 1-1/4 oz loads. By the same token its just as silly to use Green Dot or Unique in 3/4 or 7/8 oz. loads.

Proper burning rate determines the level of performance you get from any weight load. Mis-matching burning rate with the shot weight you are loading, simply produces inferior reloads.

Just that simple.

DLM

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 Post subject: Re: 3/4 oz 12 ga loads using Greendot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:08 pm 
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Curly-Nohair wrote:
I use Promo and suggest that you use a faster powder (any of the fastest powders) than Green Dot for better performance.

Yup, - I totally agree with you and Case on this one. I'd also like to add the input of my experiences as well, - and that is to also <i>discourage</i> the use of Clays for these 3/4 oz loads as well, I and hope the elders would start to add Clays to the list of powders <i>not</i> to use when they make posts/recommendations/sticky's/articles etc.

I shot my last box of 3/4 oz this last Saturday, and I won't be making any more for a while (due to a CB-WAA12L backorder at my club's components shack). My experience this saturday was the same with each, and every box that I brewed up with Clays powder - 25-40% off sounding reports, massive thick, yellowish smoke, and a pipe filled with flakes of unburned powder. My conclusion drawn is that Hodgdon's Clays powder isn't <i>quite</i> fast enough to ensure a consistent, and second-stage ignition. I love Clays for my 1-oz loads, thus why I buy so much of it. I know, I know, I'm still looking into getting 6-jugs of Promo, - it's on the list.

A shooting bud at my club recommended 16.0 gn of Titewad, and that does indeed do the trick - sharp, consistent reports every time, and broken clays (when you properly place shot on target). And that was with both, the CB-WAA12L Silvers, and the DR XXL Pinks (that I got as a sample a while back), as well as other wads tried.

I'm in no rush to re-tool for 3/4 Oz loads again (UCB + crimp adjustment Redux), however I will say that Case, and all the other proponents of the 3/4 oz load are correct, and passionate about these loads for a reason. A very real reason at that. They really <i>do</i> work, they do save lead, and by golly, i'm here to tell you, they not only "reduce" felt recoil, in one of my guns (34-inch BT-99 Golden Clays), they totally <b><i>eliminated</b></i> it!

However, I happen to have a small mountain of 7/8's, and 1-oz flats that I want to use up before thinking about getting back into the art of the 3/4 oz load.


MM3


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 Post subject: re: 3/4 oz 12 ga loads using Greendot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 3:34 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 3:59 pm
Posts: 154
Location: N. Utah
DLM et. al.

Agree with you about the efficiency of the faster powder with the lighter payloads but I have moderate problems with the smaller charges of fast powder not recycling some of my autos all the time and not cycling the inertia triggers on some of my S/S and O/U guns. If I jack up the charges to cycle the various guns, recoil becomes the about the same as a moderate 1 oz load where I can use the slower powders to generate sufficient gas volume/recoil to reliably cycle the shotguns.

I find PB an excellent alternative to the Promo/RD/etc. suggestions.

Of course, I don't have the problem with the Wingmaster or the BPS tools. And, if I really am enthusiastic about the 7/8 or 3/4 loads, wouldn't the 20 be the optimal choice for operating efficiency rather than make a 12 chuff along on thin air?

Comments? Suggestions?

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 Post subject: re: 3/4 oz 12 ga loads using Greendot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:04 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:29 am
Posts: 866
Location: Maine
I may have misunderstood the original question based upon the thread's title. If this is so, I apologize. Sometimes what is asked is whether a certain powder will work. That is not the same question as whether that powder's burn rate is optimal or most efficient. GD will work with 7/8 oz in the 12, and it will do so even at sub-1200 fps velocities. Of course, the RD/Clays burn rate is better suited to this application.

If I had a large supply of GD laying around, purchased in the days of $11/bag shot (that's not quite 4 years ago for me), I might want to know if it could be used with reduced payloads stuffed with shot purchased at $42/bag.

Sam


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 Post subject: Re: re: 3/4 oz 12 ga loads using Greendot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:14 pm 
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chukarhunter wrote:
DLM et. al.

Agree with you about the efficiency of the faster powder with the lighter payloads but I have moderate problems with the smaller charges of fast powder not recycling some of my autos all the time and not cycling the inertia triggers on some of my S/S and O/U guns. If I jack up the charges to cycle the various guns, recoil becomes the about the same as a moderate 1 oz load where I can use the slower powders to generate sufficient gas volume/recoil to reliably cycle the shotguns.

I find PB an excellent alternative to the Promo/RD/etc. suggestions.

Of course, I don't have the problem with the Wingmaster or the BPS tools. And, if I really am enthusiastic about the 7/8 or 3/4 loads, wouldn't the 20 be the optimal choice for operating efficiency rather than make a 12 chuff along on thin air?

Comments? Suggestions?
Yes, unless the shooter did not own a 20 gauge and still wanted to shoot reduced payloads for whatever reason.

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 Post subject: re: 3/4 oz 12 ga loads using Greendot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:15 pm 
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Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 10:29 am
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Location: MI
I haven't used Green Dot, but I did load with 20.5 grains of International Clays. They worked fine with gray AA's, not with XXL's. If you have any problems with a light load, first try deepening the crimp. I'm running at 60 thou. now and not having any problems. With the light shot charge, a heavy crimp can give the necessary resistance to acceleration to get a good burn. There is no denying the sensibility of using the faster powders. It would probably make more sense to sell a surplus of slower powder to get something a bit faster to work with.
Dave


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 Post subject: re: 3/4 oz 12 ga loads using Greendot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:36 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 3:59 pm
Posts: 154
Location: N. Utah
Sam, Dave:

I also have had success with 19.0 of GD and 7/8. It does do the job but I haven't tried Sam's fave of 17.3 of GD, which, btw, is one of my favorite powders.

Zutz liked the 19.0-19.5 gr. charge of GD in heavier payloads and I believe that Paul (Alliant) and Randy Wakeman also touted the virtues of GD at that charge level with 1 oz payloads.

Diff'rent strokes.....and what makes the machinery operate!

This trend reminds me a bit of the gas crunch in '73 when I tried to squeeze 25 mpg out of my 350 CI Corvette. I just couldn't get there. Better to buy a Corolla which was built for the job!

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Last edited by chukarhunter on Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: re: 3/4 oz 12 ga loads using Greendot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:39 pm 
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chukarhunter wrote:
Sam, Dave:

I also have had success with 19.0 of GD and 7/8. It does do the job but I haven't tried Sam's fave of 17.3 of GD, which, btw, is one of my favorite powders.

Zutz liked the 19.0-19.5 gr. charge of GD in heavier payloads and I believe that Paul (Alliant) and Randy Wakeman also touted the virtues of GD at that charge level with 1 oz payloads.

Diff'rent strokes.....and what makes the machinery operate!

Wasn't it Sam & Dave that sung "Soul Man"?

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Last edited by Curly-Nohair on Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: re: 3/4 oz 12 ga loads using Greendot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:05 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:29 am
Posts: 866
Location: Maine
Ron,

My motivation for GD with 7/8 oz was one part GD oversupply, one part recoil mitigation, and one part wanting to feed low-pressure loads to vintage guns. At the time I was less concerned with shot prices. I still load 17.3 gr GD and 7/8 oz for the older 12s. I also use GD for the 3/4 oz 20, 7/8 oz 16, and fast 1 oz 12s.

I'm getting excellent results with Promo in the 3/4 oz 12, and 5/8 oz 20s. Savings are realized by way of reduced powder charges, as well as by reduced powder acquisition cost.

So far I've shot about 300 1/2 oz 20s to 1220 fps using Promo. Results have been surprisingly good, even at ambient temps in the teens. The calculator says they cost me $2.65/box, using current component-to-door pricing. I averaged about one off-sounding report per round of 25 the other day. I imagine this could improve in a coupla months.

Sam


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 Post subject: re: 3/4 oz 12 ga loads using Greendot?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:27 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2003 3:59 pm
Posts: 154
Location: N. Utah
Sam,

I will be putting together some of the 17.3 GD loads for my SKB 200E which has the scalloped profile at the rear of the receiver where it joins the stock and the wood is prone to splitting when firing a lot of heavy loads. I found a pristine one and I don't want the problem to start and the light loads will prevent that but the fast powders don't always cycle the inertia trigger mechanism.

I'll let you know how they fare.

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