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 Post subject: The State of the Art - Shotgun by Gabe Suarez
PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:40 pm 
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THE STATE OF THE ART - SHOTGUN


Although for general purposes, I'd definitely take a rifle, the shotgun comes into its niche in "expected" very close range fights, in reduced light where the tempo of events does not favor traditional marksmanship principles, and where devastating damage needs to be inflicted in as short a time as possible with minimum number of shots. Additional assets are that the nature of the pattern and ammunition lends to hitting adversaries that might otherwise not be hit with a single projectlie, and the rapidly decreasing velocity tends to minimize collateral damage that may result from rifle fire.

Can you do these things with a rifle? Yes...but not as well as with a shotgun. That, my friends, is what the shotgun is for. Can you do that with slugs? No. Disagree with this statement? Show me. And if you can, show me what that will give you that a regular rifle will not also give you.


I have been reading the various threads regarding the Saiga shotguns at warriortalk.

Personally, I think the future of combat shotgunning is the Saiga. Just as the 1911 crowd bemoaned the advent of that silly-looking "plastic" pistol from Austria back in the early 1990s, I see the same resistance from the traditional shotgun venues in the USA. But all the traditional shotguns out there from the 870 to the Benelli are simply bird guns reworked for tactical use.

I remember the hey-day of Heckler and Koch, when every SWT unit was using some derivative of the MP5. With the HK package came the Benelli Super 90. And for many years, the Super 90 lead the way in fighting shotgun development. Trailing it were the 1100/1187, the 870, and to a lesser degree, the Mossbergs. No other shotguns were, or are, as widely adopted as these. Yet all of these have deficiencies. They are all sporting guns modified for police/military use. One can argue that they are sufficient and that they will work. Sure...so will a five shot revolver, and a lever action rifle. But you see few of those as uninfluenced first choices today.

The Saiga is different. What I see happening is that beginning here, we will influence changes in the shotgun world. See today how our Close Range Gunfighting, Force On Force, and Kalashnikov programs have changed things. Back in 2000, people were still arguing about Weaver versus Isoceles for heavens sake.
Today they are copying what we are doing and even the stodgiest dinosaur school is grudgingly taking a little shuffle step off the x and admitting that a little force on force is OK.

The Saiga has the potential of becoming the Glock of the shotgun world. The only limit is how fast the Russians can make them and how quickly can Americans import them. Eventually, someone will figure it out and reverse-engineer an all US-made Saiga shotgun (as well as probably an AK), but that eventuality is far off. Eventually also other companies will make magazine fed shotguns based on other weapon systems. I am dying to see what an M4 shotgun will look like. We will see all the gizzmo-freaks add things to these things like they do to their overweight M4s. But the AK platform will out-price and out perform them all, just as the Kalashnikov Rifle does today.

I must say it is exciting to be leading the charge on this. The only things that can stop or curtail this are the production capability at Izhmash, Russia, import problems created by our beloved government, or the passage of some law against these by an outlaw political machine. None of these seem likely...at least not in the near future. (With all the existing politcal problems, it will take at least 4 years for even The Witch Hillary to get to the guns issue).

SI presently has a dozen Kalashnikov Rifles. I don't need that many, but my training company does. Since I have seen the Saiga 12 and worked with it, I plan to accumulate as many of these as it would take to equip a training class. The state of the art today is the Saiga 12.



Guys, you should sign up for Gabe's newletter. Lots of good stuff on there.
LINK




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 Post subject: re: The State of the Art - Shotgun by Gabe Suarez
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:21 am 
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I did sign up but I haven't gotten an issue yet.

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 Post subject: re: The State of the Art - Shotgun by Gabe Suarez
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:03 pm 
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I agree. Lots of good stuff. The one I read about close range handgun sight alignment made me say to myself " why did'nt I think of that".


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 Post subject: re: The State of the Art - Shotgun by Gabe Suarez
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 3:40 pm 
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Gabe's site is awesome, i posted one of his newsletters here a while back and a link to his site.

I was fortunate to attend two of the Suarez classes and learned more there than, well, anywhere else. It's also worth it to spend 10 minutes at the forums, click on new posts, and scroll down all the recent stuff. It's free, he's controversial, and thus, the forums attract a diverse and free-thinking bunch.

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 Post subject: re: The State of the Art - Shotgun by Gabe Suarez
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:08 pm 
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My guess is that other manufacturers will come out with quality magazine fed semi-autos and eventually leave the saigas behind. I can't see many major US police departments switching over to a Russian made shotgun. But if Remington or Benelli come out with one... Wait, that will be AFTER the elections. I guess the peasantry will never have the chance to own a modern shotgun.


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 Post subject: re: The State of the Art - Shotgun by Gabe Suarez
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 8:42 pm 
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Listen to me, if you don't want a ban get your a$$ out there and VOTE!

As to the saiga being state of the art, I'm okay with that. I'll never leave my Benelli aside but I have considered getting a saiga. If I ever find one and have money in my pocket I might just get one.

I also like Suarez, only thing I don't like about him is some of the machoism and my feelings on religion are well known.

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 Post subject: re: The State of the Art - Shotgun by Gabe Suarez
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 10:43 pm 
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Is $500 good for a saiga 12 ga.?


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 Post subject: Re: re: The State of the Art - Shotgun by Gabe Suarez
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:54 pm 
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Reverend Db wrote:
Listen to me, if you don't want a ban get your a$$ out there and VOTE!


And not for Bi... uh I mean Hillary. :lol:

And I would think $500 is like stealing it.

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 Post subject: re: The State of the Art - Shotgun by Gabe Suarez
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:58 pm 
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"Listen to me, if you don't want a ban get your a$$ out there and VOTE!"
_____________________________________________________

Now that Fred is out and Ron Paul is a distiant 4th it looks like a choice between Hillary and Romney or McCain. None of them strongly support the 2A.

With that out of the way, can you immagine a magazine fed Benelli M2? That would be the berries!


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 Post subject: Re: re: The State of the Art - Shotgun by Gabe Suarez
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:31 am 
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Ezra Smack wrote:
I can't see many major US police departments switching over to a Russian made shotgun.


Oh, Really.

That's funny since the FBI Hotage Rescue Team in Quantico Virginia just bought an 8" Tromix Saiga-12.

I sell them to PD's all over the country, my friend.

Tony Rumore
Tromix Corp


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 Post subject: re: The State of the Art - Shotgun by Gabe Suarez
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:36 pm 
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Makes sense to me! If my job was to go through doorways I too would want a short barreled Saiga. Short bbl that doesn't reduce capacity? Hell yeah!

I am a Benelli man through and through but I have always thought that Tromix conversions look really, really neat.

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 Post subject: Re: re: The State of the Art - Shotgun by Gabe Suarez
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:06 pm 
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Jamas wrote:
Reverend Db wrote:
Listen to me, if you don't want a ban get your a$$ out there and VOTE!


And not for Bi... uh I mean Hillary. :lol:

And I would think $500 is like stealing it.
Ya it's $495 at a gun shop down the street. I'll buy it when I get the $$ if it's still there.


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 Post subject: Re: re: The State of the Art - Shotgun by Gabe Suarez
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:11 pm 
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Reverend Db wrote:
I also like Suarez, only thing I don't like about him is some of the machoism....


What makes you say he's "macho"? Everything I've seen and know about his is that he's a great instructor who's pushing our levels of training to new heights.

If Suarez wasn't around, force on force would not be where it is today...nor would we now be emphasizing movement to the degree that most quality trainers now are.

I'm just curious why you hold that opinion of him...?


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 Post subject: re: The State of the Art - Shotgun by Gabe Suarez
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:16 pm 
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I AM MACHO!!! It is better to be macho than feminine! That is...unless you are a woman.

I can shoot a Saiga 12 one handed while swinging a Kettlebell with the other, hanging from my feet, and reciting scripture without losing my contraband Cuban cigar out of my mouth!

Arrrrgggggghhhhhh! :wink:


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 Post subject: re: The State of the Art - Shotgun by Gabe Suarez
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 6:50 pm 
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HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! Nice.

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 Post subject: re: The State of the Art - Shotgun by Gabe Suarez
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 7:58 pm 
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Seriously guys...there is nothing wrong with an 870. I, if anyone, should know the usefulness of a good 870 since I got to shoot several bad guys with mine back in the day.

However....

I don't carry a 1911, or shoot an AR-15, nor do I own a Scout Rifle. Why not? Because there is progress.

The short trigger striker fired pistols have advanced beyond the 1911. The AK will do things the AR can never do, and I find other rifles much more useful than a Scout Rifle.

Same with the shotgun. The Saiga 12 is IMHO, far ahead of any currently sold combat shotgun. I have an 870, and the Saiga 12 is easier to shoot, easier to operate tactically, and manipulate.

Can you load a single round int he 870 faster?

Sure, but if that was of such importance, why don't your rifles operate in the same way? I don't see too many pump action rifles out there. Why not? Because the concept of the magazine fed weapon is a better one than a tube fed weapon. The shotgun's development has been held back because of a lack of military interest, and not because the tube-fed method is better.

Is the tube-fed pump action better for hunting or whatever? I really dfon't know and don't care. That is simply not my interest. I am looking at the weapon for a different situation.

And as far as the feel of one weapon versus the other, I will say it is dependant on the man. An AR-15 feels clumsy to me, whereas an AK feels just right.

We'll see what happens with this shotgun, but this is what I have in the works -

A Saiga Shotgun DVD that will how to kill the bad guys with your scum-sucking commie shotgun. :shock:

A Saiga specific course that will give you hands on instruction on how to kill the bad guys with your scum-sucking commie shotgun. :shock: :shock:

And a Saiga specific book that...you guessed it, teaches you how to kill the bad guys with your scum-sucking commie shotgun. :twisted:

And if the american electorate shows itself to be stupid enough to vote in the Witch or the Hadji, I will keep doing this until the black helicopters come looking for me....then I will show the guy worried about macho what its all about.

Cheers

Gabe Suarez
www.suarezinternational.com.
www.onesourcetactical.com
www.warriortalk.com

Cell 928-308-1512

Spaniard by Heritage
Cuban by Birth
Christian by Grace
American by Choice


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 Post subject: re: The State of the Art - Shotgun by Gabe Suarez
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:42 pm 
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Gabe,
How about building a course around the Saiga like you did for the AK?

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 Post subject: Re: re: The State of the Art - Shotgun by Gabe Suarez
PostPosted: Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:04 pm 
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Gabe Suarez wrote:
I AM MACHO!!! It is better to be macho than feminine! That is...unless you are a woman.

I can shoot a Saiga 12 one handed while swinging a Kettlebell with the other, hanging from my feet, and reciting scripture without losing my contraband Cuban cigar out of my mouth!

Arrrrgggggghhhhhh! :wink:



So Gabe, is this something that you're going to doing in all your classes? :wink:


I got to shoot a Saiga when I took the Defensive Shotgun Skill course with Mike Freese back in October. It certainly didn't help me not want one. Finding one around here is another story...


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 Post subject: re: The State of the Art - Shotgun by Gabe Suarez
PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 5:24 am 
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speaking of a kettlebell I need to get to my morning workout and off the computer.

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 Post subject: re: The State of the Art - Shotgun by Gabe Suarez
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 12:35 pm 
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HaaHaa! I didn't know him before..but I like him now!! :D




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