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 Post subject: 28 Gauge Model 12 on Cabela's
PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:26 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:34 pm
Posts: 2216
Location: Nova Scotia,Canada
Was just looking on the Cabela's web site at a 28 gauge Model 12.The item number was 929801.The shotgun was made in 1947 and has a simmons vent rib with a full choke.The barrel length is listed at 27 inches which I think is an odd length for a 28 gauge Model 12.

Just wondering if this shotgun is original or been fixed.The pictures of the shotgun seem to look as if it is original.Maybe Only Winchesters ,Ole Cowboy or someone else could have a look and give their opinion.

Thanks.




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 Post subject: re: 28 Gauge Model 12 on Cabela's
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:37 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:40 pm
Posts: 2347
Location: Shingle Springs, CA
Good morning 28, Happy New Year! Well either the person who typed the add had a typo and didn't proof read it for correctness, or they are a complete moron and don't know how to measure Md 12 barrels!!

This is what I can tell you from looking at the pictures. This is the standard donut post rib that Simmons still installs today, and that rib looks to have been installed within the last 20 years or so, Oltahe, KS) more than likely the last few years. Notice the straight lines on the rib top. You will see that there is an off-set proof mark, tells me that the gun originally had a solid rib, Simmons removed it to install the vent rib. Look closely at the butt stock and you will see it's the last style of butt stock, it's not original to the gun.

Since it's been reblued, stock not original, IMO it's way over priced, Should be more in the $4500-$5000 range. By the time you add a tranfer fee and postage, your pretty close to $7000. that's an expensive shooter, that you would have to own a long time to break even!

Regards Dave


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 Post subject: re: 28 Gauge Model 12 on Cabela's
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:19 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:34 pm
Posts: 2216
Location: Nova Scotia,Canada
Hello to you,Only Winchesters.Thanks for the reply.Must admit the offset proof mark had me scratching my head as it was in the correct place for a factory vent rib.Had not considered that a solid rib could have been on the original and removed later.

The only 28 gauge Winchester Model 12 with a vent rib that I have seen was a skeet gun.It had if my memory is correct a Winchester Special Vent Rib Barrel.

Just wondering if you know if there were any vent ribs put on 28 gauge Model 12 shotguns before the introduction of the Winchester Special Vent Rib Barrel?


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 Post subject: re: 28 Gauge Model 12 on Cabela's
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 12:56 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 4:40 pm
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Location: Shingle Springs, CA
Hi 28: Well since the "Special Vent rib" was cateloged in Jan 1954, in order to have some ready to ship, winchester would have had to make some up in 1953. could there have been a 28ga. receiver in the ware house from the late 40s sure, but unlikely.

the 28ga. being in low demand, they wouldn't have many on hand like a 12 or 20ga. receiver. Another give away is the barrel is stamped 2 7/8 CHAM. Winchester finally changed the 28ga. to 2 3/4 about 1952.

Also like I said, the top of the rib has "straight lines" all factory Donut Post ribs were machine matted like the solid rib. they also didn't have "SIMMONS" on the side. The later oval post had SIMMONS Patent Pending, on it.

Regards Dave


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 Post subject: re: 28 Gauge Model 12 on Cabela's
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 8:30 pm 
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Location: The Republic of Texas
The proof mark could well have been "added" also! :wink:


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 Post subject: re: 28 Gauge Model 12 on Cabela's
PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 9:23 pm 
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Good evening everyone: Your right Ole Cowboy. I studied the photo's under magnification and the Proof next to the rib on the barrel was there before it was reblued, (it had been polished). Who ever at Cabelas chose the photos to post, did not show the receiver where the 2nd Proof should be.

Since receiver Proof was machined away for the ramp channel, if someone were going to "add a Proof" I think they would have added 2.

Over the years I've seen a number of Md 12s and 42s with one "proof" and if you follow the rib posts on each side most of the time you see a "score" line which is what's left of the 2 little cuts Wunchester made on the barrel to install the solid rib. These two little channels if you will are about .015-.020 originally and almost impossible to polish away completely.

Regards Dave


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 Post subject: re: 28 Gauge Model 12 on Cabela's
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:13 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:34 pm
Posts: 2216
Location: Nova Scotia,Canada
Only Winchesters, I agree with all you have said above.Hope that I did not come off as trying to argue.Just wondering if Winchester ever put vent rib barrels on 28 gauge Model 12 shotguns before the introduction of the special vent rib.It seems to me that I had read sometime that only solid rib and plain barrels were listed for the 28 gauge Model 12 until the special vent was introduced.

The 28 gauge Model 12 skeet gun that I saw was a later shotgun with the 2 3/4 inch chamber markings.


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 Post subject: re: 28 Gauge Model 12 on Cabela's
PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 6:24 pm 
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Location: Shingle Springs, CA
Hi 28: I know you weren't argueing. Just trying to point out to OC why in this case I didn't think the Proof stamp was added.

To answer your question, the only vent rib availble before 1954 was the "2 Pin" with the "Duck Bill" ramp on the receiver. Factory literature states you could order a Pigeon Grade gun with a VR. starting in the late 40s. (It doesn't specify gauge). also it was about 1950 when the 20ga. Skeet gun was first offered with a VR (Duck Bill).

So could there be a pre-1954 28ga with a 2 pin vent rib, IMO absolutely, Pigeon or possibly Skeet grade. but as you know John Olin would do a lot for his friends, and of course Winchester execs got special treatment too!

I think it would be extremely rare to run across one if you do, buy it because there couldn't be more than a handful ever made.

You just "can't fake" a 2 pin VR 28ga. Donut post VR yes, Solid Ribs when Andy was in business yes, but not a "2 Pin".

Regards Dave


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 Post subject: re: 28 Gauge Model 12 on Cabela's
PostPosted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:44 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:34 pm
Posts: 2216
Location: Nova Scotia,Canada
Thanks again ,Only Winchesters.As always great information.


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 Post subject: re: 28 Gauge Model 12 on Cabela's
PostPosted: Mon Jan 28, 2008 3:13 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2006 2:34 pm
Posts: 2216
Location: Nova Scotia,Canada
Just looking on the site again today.The shotgun is now listed as sold.


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 Post subject: re: 28 Gauge Model 12 on Cabela's
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:38 am 
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Location: Shingle Springs, CA
Good morning 28: Just saw a field grade, 28in. full choke, solid rib, pre-war sell for $11025 on GB.!!

It was a very nice gun!! but no way would I have spent that kind of money of a field gun. bottom line, choosing the right marketing method, can mean finding that one person with deep pockets, who just has to have it!! LOL

Regards dave


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 Post subject: re: 28 Gauge Model 12 on Cabela's
PostPosted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:14 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2004 6:09 pm
Posts: 636
Tends to make one believe that P. T. Barnum was correct .


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 Post subject: Re: 28 Gauge Model 12 on Cabela's
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:14 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:27 pm
Posts: 15
The 2 pin rib is for 12 gauge only. No small gauges. The round posts ribs are found on ser. # 1,500,000 to 1,700,000 from winchester. This is why no 16 gauge ws1 vented rib skeet guns are around . They quit the 16 guage ws1 before the vented rib was offered. I just added that for fun.The 2 pin rib came with the red winchester solid pad unless orderd differnt. Small guns with vent ribs came with butt plate unless ordered differnt,


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 Post subject: Re: 28 Gauge Model 12 on Cabela's
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 8:12 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 am
Posts: 6748
Location: Maryland
Can you provide a catalog reference where it states that a two pin Skeet Grade gun comes standard with a recoil pad?


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 Post subject: Re: 28 Gauge Model 12 on Cabela's
PostPosted: Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:46 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:27 pm
Posts: 15
Well good question. The 12 gauge trap say's so in the description of the stock. But in the skeet model with the two pin rib useing ordering # G1284S it does not describe the pad or plate just the length of pull of 14". I am told that the order is special and the buyer gets to choose. I myself have three 12 gauge two pin skeet guns and the pigeon grade has a plate and the two skeet grades have one of each and they are from the factory this way. I rarely shoot them for skeet becouse I shoot a 16 gauge skeet grade for the 12 gauge class. All I can tell you to look at is the Dave Riffle book on page 109. Heck just call Dave up and ask him. I bought a great 16 skeet model 12 from him and a pigeon trap two pin and it has a solid red pad. To answer the Question ,,,,,I was told if the buyer dosen't pick then a pad is installed. So can you show me . I really don't think this has any thing to do with the 28 gauge.


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 Post subject: Re: 28 Gauge Model 12 on Cabela's
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 8:06 am 
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Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 am
Posts: 6748
Location: Maryland
I was not replying to anything involving the 28 gauge. I was attempting to correct a piece of erroneous information. If a serious Winchester collector sees a two pin vent rib Skeet Grade 12 gauge with a recoil pad, the assumption is that the pad was put on in the aftermarket.


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 Post subject: Re: 28 Gauge Model 12 on Cabela's
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 4:13 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:28 am
Posts: 225
First of all...discussing Model-12s and Winchesters in general is fun and interesting, second..nothing is written in stone about M-12s, there are a very few exceptions to the rules..some guns were assembled from parts, left over parts, custom built, even engraved, etc...for employees and executives. That being said, there is no such thing as a 2-pin, duck bill 28ga...it just doesn't fit into any of the time periods. The 2-pin, duck bill was only available on 12ga. As a hobby I really watch the auction sites and I have never seen a M-12, 28ga actually "sell" for $11,000.00 JMHO...WC


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 Post subject: Re: 28 Gauge Model 12 on Cabela's
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 5:58 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:29 am
Posts: 980
Location: Maine
Most go well under $11k.

However..............

http://www.jamesdjulia.com

Oct. 2010, first session. Prices realized: Lot #1227 $13.8k, lot # 1228 $10.35k.

Both were legit factory original guns, on real 28 ga frames.

Sam


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 Post subject: Re: 28 Gauge Model 12 on Cabela's
PostPosted: Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:44 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2006 4:11 am
Posts: 267
Location: Black Hills of South Dakota
There must be something REAL special about those 28 gauge Model 12 shotguns. :shock:

_________________
Quid me anxias sum


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 Post subject: Re: 28 Gauge Model 12 on Cabela's
PostPosted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 6:45 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Fri Mar 02, 2007 9:29 am
Posts: 980
Location: Maine
Golfswithwolves wrote:
There must be something REAL special about those 28 gauge Model 12 shotguns. :shock:


There is: it's a combination of rarity and cache'.

It sure as heck is not smooth-cycling........at least not with "real" ones.

Sam




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