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 Post subject: Home brewed tungsten shot loads.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 5:58 pm 
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I got a sample of 95% tungsten #6 shot ( 0.118") today and loaded up a couple to test fire.
(isn't 0.118 closer to number 5 shot than number 6 shot? I think it is.)
Only had a quick chance to hang one sheet of pattern paper at 40 and try one.
I used my beater M-500 12 gauge, installed a Trulock cylinder bore, in other words, no choke, and fired one 1 1/4 ounce load.
I got 83% pattern, nice even spread.
Do any of you guys with more experience with tungsten than me think that using an imp/cyl choke might make slightly tighter patterns?
I would think it would have to be a steel shot rated i/c tube.
Thoughts appreciated.



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Last edited by jeager106 on Fri Feb 08, 2008 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: re: Home brewed tungsten shot loads.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:32 pm 
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95% tungsten. :shock:

This brings up a few questions:

What kind of wads are you using? A 20 gauge steel shot wad inside of a 12 gauge steel shot wad?

Why do want a tighter pattern than 83% at 40 yards? Hunting turkeys? (Or pass shooting Geese maybe?)

What's your pellet count look like with 1 1/4 oz of #6 shot that's 50% denser than Hevi-Shot? How many pellets in a 30" circle with that load?

How much are you paying per ounce?

Feel free to PM if there's anything on that list you don't want to publish. :wink:


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 Post subject: re: Home brewed tungsten shot loads.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 3:54 pm 
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Another question, have these pellets been approved by the USFWS?


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 Post subject: re: Home brewed tungsten shot loads.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:24 pm 
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jeager Are you talking TSS?

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 Post subject: Re: re: Home brewed tungsten shot loads.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 7:59 pm 
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Heavy Hitter wrote:
Another question, have these pellets been approved by the USFWS?


Why?

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 Post subject: Re: re: Home brewed tungsten shot loads.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:01 pm 
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Captn66 wrote:
jeager Are you talking TSS?


No.

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 Post subject: Re: re: Home brewed tungsten shot loads.
PostPosted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 8:22 pm 
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Researcher wrote:
95% tungsten. :shock:
This brings up a few questions:
What kind of wads are you using? A 20 gauge steel shot wad inside of a 12 gauge steel shot wad?
Why do want a tighter pattern than 83% at 40 yards? Hunting turkeys? (Or pass shooting Geese maybe?)
What's your pellet count look like with 1 1/4 oz of #6 shot that's 50% denser than Hevi-Shot? How many pellets in a 30" circle with that load?
How much are you paying per ounce?
Feel free to PM if there's anything on that list you don't want to publish. :wink:
-Dave


Dave:
Well, duh! No kidding.
Check your PM. :wink:
I will volunteer this:
There are many, many, places to get tungsten suitable for use as 'shot' for sporting applications.
You have to be very careful who you buy from.
I've been 'playing around' with this for at least three years.
Work and family, other hobbies, reloading, varmint hunting, deer, hunting, fishing, working too many hours, have crimped my time.
I'm not working now. Been crippled up for 9 months, may have to retire early due to injuries.
So it goes.
Now I can play but of course money is always an issue.
One mfg. of tungsten shperes want's 90 bucks a pound, still another wants, ready????? EIGHT GRAND a pound.
:shock:
There are many, many, kinds of tungsten sphere, balls, and pellets, all three are different, some are dead nuts round, some are close enough.
The prettier they are the more they cost.
Pretty don't kill game.
Niether does round.
My personal research tells me that #6 tungsten offers a great blend of pellet/pattern density/penetration. I have much more work to do.
Why do I want better than 83% patterns at 40?
'Cause anyone can get 83% patterns at 40.
I want 100%.
Will I get that?
No.
Even 83% may be too strong a pattern for some sporting applications.
Remember. This material shoots from a cylinder bore.
You are going to get 80 something percent.
Choke tubes can't help ya there.
What if you want tungsten shot for ducks but they are decoying in nicely at 25 yards?
Minced duck that's what.
Remember. You cannot switch to a more open choke with tungsten, you ain't got no choke in the 1st place.
So tungsten is only good for 40 to 50 yards?
Not necessarily.
It can be loaded to spread quite nicley thank you very much.
Another real life issue with tungsten is barrel damage.
If just one pellet gets between the protective wrapper and the s.g. barrel you will have a dandy trench down the length of the bore.
Still want to buy someones factory, mass produced tungsten?
Or do you want to know how to get it, load it and use it?
Tungsten never will be a 'general use' load for waterfowl or turkey or anything else.
I would love to have ten #6 tungsten loads when they are flying high and far all day long.
When they are decoying at 30 yards who needs tungsten or h.d. or hevi shot or bysmith?
Good steel works just fine.
I have some .171 tungsten shot.
I do think that stuff would kill deer at 40 yards and blow clean thru them.
1 1/4 ounce of #6 shot = 150 pellets.
At 40 yards the pattern can contain 120 to 131 pellets.
That's between 80 and a whopping 87%.
Yes they fill a pattern 30 circle about right for anything larger than a quail.

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 Post subject: re: Home brewed tungsten shot loads.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:36 am 
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I know that Kyle has tested TSS with everything up to turkey chokes, and the stuff does respond to choke. Here's a 93% pattern at 60 yards that was fired through an IC choke:

Image

The stuff you have should respond similarly, as it can't be much different (actually, it probably infringes on TSS's patent). Number 6 shot will be good for just about anything you want to shoot with it. TSS 7's handle greaters to 50 yds and snows to 60 yds without problem.

Later,
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 Post subject: re: Home brewed tungsten shot loads.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:03 am 
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Wow!
That's an awsome pattern.
The tungsten shot I have is 150 pellets to 1 1/4 ounce.
In appearance it is not very similar to TSS at all.
Except for being round and made of 95% tungsten with some iron and nickel.
TSS sure is pretty shot though but there is a lot to be said about the round 'ball' and aerodynamic properties.
Ever see a perfectly round, smooth, golf ball?
There is a reason for the size, shape, position, quantity, and depth of each and every one of the dimples in a golf ball.
Have you ever looked at a hevishot "ball"?
It looks nothing like a ball.
In fact it's downright ufly looking stuff.
I've seen hevi ammo marked # 5 shot that contained #2 and #11 in the same load, most of the hevi shot has a 'tail' on it, much of it has holes in the surface of it, and almost none is round.
In fact you really can't call hevi shot a "ball' or "sphere".
Yet it flys well all the same and apparently is quite effective on game.
Thank you very much for the pattern and information.

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 Post subject: re: Home brewed tungsten shot loads.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 12:18 pm 
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I understand the idea behind the dimples on a golf ball (FWIW, dimples delay the separation of the boundary layer in order to reduce the amount of turbulence behind the ball). I seriously doubt that the irregularities in Hevi-Shot has this same effect. I don't even know that separation of the boundary layer is an issue at supersonic and near-supersonic velocities. I do know that TSS holds patterns better than Hevi, and Hevi holds better patterns than lead. It's seems certain (at least to me) that density has much more to do with it than sphericity.

The shot you have is basically TSS. It's tungsten powder sintered together with iron and nickel used as the binder. The only real difference is the final polishing step has been left out (which gives TSS the perfectly round, shiny appearance of a ball bearing). As I mentioned before, your supplier may wish to reconsider the sale of this stuff, as it almost certainly is infringing on TSS's patent.

This stuff really is fun to play with. However, the real issue in my mind is getting good patterns at all ranges. I'd rather have good, wide, killing patterns from 30-50 yds than good patterns at 60. The real beauty of TSS is just that ability. I can't hit most birds at 60 yds very well (except for snows that are stalled over the dekes), and neither can the vast majority of hunters. Having extremely lethal shot that can throw full 30" patterns from 30-50 yds (with target-load recoil) is the real strength of this type of shot.

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 Post subject: Re: re: Home brewed tungsten shot loads.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 1:51 pm 
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Bug Doc wrote:
The shot you have is basically TSS. It's tungsten powder sintered together with iron and nickel used as the binder. The only real difference is the final polishing step has been left out (which gives TSS the perfectly round, shiny appearance of a ball bearing). As I mentioned before, your supplier may wish to reconsider the sale of this stuff, as it almost certainly is infringing on TSS's patent.

This stuff really is fun to play with. However, the real issue in my mind is getting good patterns at all ranges. I'd rather have good, wide, killing patterns from 30-50 yds than good patterns at 60. The real beauty of TSS is just that ability. I can't hit most birds at 60 yds very well (except for snows that are stalled over the dekes), and neither can the vast majority of hunters. Having extremely lethal shot that can throw full 30" patterns from 30-50 yds (with target-load recoil) is the real strength of this type of shot.


Just for grins I went back to the TSS site and the only information about a patent is that there is supposed to be one pending.
I'd be interested to know what the pending patent is for?
The process of making tungsten bird shot?
The alloy of the tungsten?
The process for sintering?
The process for polishing tungsten spheres?
I have no idea.
I do know that there are several U.S. based companies that openly advertise "spheres", and "balls" as potential replacement for lead for the shooting sports.
I've not seen so much as one producer that calls round tungsten balls, "pellets".
There are ammo companies loading tungsten right now as we speak.
The military has been using tungsten as projectile material for decades in artillery and now in small arms ammunition.
There is one company that will sell, by the pound, tungsten spheres, 95% tunsten, rough sintered, or polished per customer request to any individual willing to pay for it.
Some prices are simply out of reach of the home reloader, but some are affordable to the few willing to experiment.

I'm extremely curious why you refer to patent infringments????
In fact one outfit sent me a small sample of 2.5 ounces at NO CHARGE.
Sadly it was 2mm, or about #11 shot.
It's up for grabs to anyone that wants it.

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 Post subject: re: Home brewed tungsten shot loads.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 2:02 pm 
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If I remember correctly, TSS's patent is for shot made with tungsten, iron, and nickel in densities of about 17 to 19 g/cc. It may still be in a pending status, but the application has been in for a couple of years now. I'm not an expert on patent law, so if someone could enlighten us on the implications, I'd be grateful.

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 Post subject: Re: re: Home brewed tungsten shot loads.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 4:35 pm 
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Bug Doc wrote:
If I remember correctly, TSS's patent is for shot made with tungsten, iron, and nickel in densities of about 17 to 19 g/cc. It may still be in a pending status, but the application has been in for a couple of years now. I'm not an expert on patent law, so if someone could enlighten us on the implications, I'd be grateful.


Tell ya what.
Being as you are not a patent attorney I am really confused about your admonishment for using widely available round balls of tungsten.
That seems to be way out of line on a waterfowl forum.
That said perhaps you have a business association with TSS?
If that's the case and you have a legal concern about me or anyone else loading some tungsten shot at home for the hell of it I wish you would be specific about your issues.
So far I don't sell it, promote it, or work for anyone that does.
Do you?
If I want to sell some, rest assured I certainly will.
Without your permission.
Pehaps you have a personal association with the owner of TSS?
If that is the case perhaps you could consider that the owner probably is completely capable of speaking for him/her self (selves)?
Just for your edification and clarification EACH AND EVERY business I've had contact with that sells tungsten balls, spheres, even cubes, uses a 95% tungsten alloyed with iron and nickel.
Every one.
The denisties of each and every one range between 17 and 19 g/cc with the vast majority around 17 g/cc.
There are business that sell tungsten and non metalic alloys.
If those outfits manufacture round shapes in sizes small enough to use for sporting shotgun applications, they too, are willing to sell to individuals at certain small quantity prices.
I even found two business willing to sell tungsten powder and chemicals to mix your own tungsten polymer at home should you so desire.
Now I do appreciate your contributions to this thread.
I find the concept of tungsten shot for sporting applications fasinating and a sure way to go broke in a hurry as a business venture.
There simply are not a whole hell of a lot of guys willing to drop 30 bucks to "roll yer own" ten h.d. shotshells.

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 Post subject: re: Home brewed tungsten shot loads.
PostPosted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 11:55 pm 
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jeager106,
You misunderstood my intentions. I wasn't admonishing you for testing the shot. I was simply stating that your supplier may be in patent infringement if they continue selling tungsten balls/spheres/shot/whatever for use as shotgun projectiles. Likely they wouldn't even know it. Just friendly advice, FWIW.

I have no formal association with TSS. Kyle is a friend, and I do some ballistic testing and graphics art work for him. In exchange he gives me a few prototype rounds to use for hunting (I guess that can also be considered ballistic testing, as I give him detailed reports on the birds I take). I guess you could also say I give him some free advertising, as I post up my results on a couple of forums that I frequent. I have no financial stake in the company, nor has he ever paid me a dime. I'm simply interested in the unique capabilities of this shot.

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 Post subject: Re: re: Home brewed tungsten shot loads.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 6:45 am 
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Bug Doc wrote:
jeager106,
You misunderstood my intentions. I wasn't admonishing you for testing the shot. I was simply stating that your supplier may be in patent infringement if they continue selling tungsten balls/spheres/shot/whatever for use as shotgun projectiles. Likely they wouldn't even know it. Just friendly advice, FWIW.

I have no formal association with TSS. Kyle is a friend, and I do some ballistic testing and graphics art work for him. In exchange he gives me a few prototype rounds to use for hunting (I guess that can also be considered ballistic testing, as I give him detailed reports on the birds I take). I guess you could also say I give him some free advertising, as I post up my results on a couple of forums that I frequent. I have no financial stake in the company, nor has he ever paid me a dime. I'm simply interested in the unique capabilities of this shot.


O.K. I, too, am only interested in "testing" tungsten shot and sharing the results.
I "tested" some TSS my self. Darned good product that fits a very, very, small niche market.
The company I bought tungsten sphere from knows full well what the intended use is for.
I explained it in detail in order for the supplier, who is also the manufacturer, to be fully aware of the end product.
Needless to say they have already sold, been selling, continue to sell spheres to much bigger concerns than me.
And for a much longer time period that your friend has been in business.
If you friend has any concerns then he absolutely should contact me privately. I'd be happy to share my information with him/her.
I didn't invent tungsten spheres, neither did your buddy.
So best we not harp on this silly patent issue, can only cause negative feelings.
I think maybe your friend should send me a PM.
There is a future for 17 to 19 g/cc tungsten shot in waterfowling, perhaps even for turkey loads, but most certainly in ***************.
Never mind, you already know that don't you.
Back to the issue.
Hunting ducks.
"t" shot will work well out to 40 yards, 50 if you pattern your s.g. and load and can reliably score on the target at that distance.
Large "t" shot is likely not going to work for s.g. applications.
There simply isn't enough shot because of the denisity in a 1 1/4 ounce load.
One would have to develope 1.5 ounce loads in the larger sizes to get PATTERN deinsity with the bigger stuff, say, size one and two shot.
I have some #1 shot and it's just too big and completely unnecessary.
I think #1 tungsten alloy at 17 g/cc would likely kill whitetail deer out to 40 yards or so.

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 Post subject: Re: re: Home brewed tungsten shot loads.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 11:08 am 
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jeager106 wrote:
Heavy Hitter wrote:
Another question, have these pellets been approved by the USFWS?


Why?


If it isn't approved by them it's no different than shooting lead.

Do you like spending a ridiculous amount on illegal shot?

Do you plan to submit it to the feds for approval?


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 Post subject: Re: re: Home brewed tungsten shot loads.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:20 pm 
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Heavy Hitter wrote:
jeager106 wrote:
Heavy Hitter wrote:
Another question, have these pellets been approved by the USFWS?


Why?


If it isn't approved by them it's no different than shooting lead.

Do you like spending a ridiculous amount on illegal shot?

Do you plan to submit it to the feds for approval?


It's expensive but not that expensive.

I'm not shooting at ducks 'n geese.

Frankly I think 95% tungsten, iron and nickel is approved, no matter who makes it.
If they want to take a look at it I could make that happen I suppose.
Why? Do you think I should go into business selling tungsten duck shot at 3 bucks a bang?
99.9 % of the waterfowl hunters aren't likely to spend that kind of money to shoot a duck.
Or are they?
I wouldn't.
Can you imagine a good day when the birds were flying well and you were shooting badly and you fired 20 rounds of ammo that just cost you 60 to 80 bucks!
Ouch!

What does a box of 25 of good steel shot cost?
25 to 28 bucks?
Won't good steel shot handle at least 99% of the waterfowl shooting?
I'm asking serious questions here.
I plan on getting back into duck and geese hunting next fall, after a better than 20 year lapse.
Do you really think people will pay 30 bucks a ten pack for tungsten when steel will do most any day?
I don't know.
Winchester, or Federal just came out with some ultra h.d. shot at 42 bucks a ten pack.
That don't mean people will buy it.
I bought 60 bucks worth of TSS stuff out of shear curiosity.
I'm glad I did.
I learned a million dollar lesson for 60 bucks.
That TSS is simply AWESOME!
It makes my little 20 gauge BPS a serious goose gun.
I already have a 3" 1 1/4 ounce 20 gauge load worked up using a skeet tube and it patterns at least 83% at 40.
I think I can do better with a trick or two I learned from TSS.

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 Post subject: Re: re: Home brewed tungsten shot loads.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:07 pm 
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jeager106 wrote:

I'm not shooting at ducks 'n geese.



I'll play along... then why on earth would you be messing with tungsten shot?

Would I pay $3 a shell for tungsten... HELL NO!

Do I pay $1-$1.40 a shell? Yup, and will do so until I can no longer find it for that price. I don't even shoot the stuff that much and still have one shell left from a box of 10 I opened a few years back. I just can't justify the price to shoot it exclusively.

Oh well, continue on and good luck with whatever it is that your planning on doing with it.


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 Post subject: re: Home brewed tungsten shot loads.
PostPosted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:13 pm 
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Quote:
What does a box of 25 of good steel shot cost?
25 to 28 bucks?


Are you from Canada? I don't think there is a box of steel in Wally World that runs that much. I usually pay around 10 bucks a box for 25 shells of 3 inch #2's.

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 Post subject: re: Home brewed tungsten shot loads.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:13 am 
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I was just looking over on the FWS site for approved materials but I was unable to find the current list. I did find one from 2006 but nothing for 2007. This is the one from 2006. http://www.fws.gov/migratorybirds/issue ... ntoxic.htm I thought I read last summer that FWS were considering changing their approval process to automatically approve any shot containing only combinations of already approved elements like bismuth, tin, iron, tungsten, nickel, bronze, and copper.

I don't know if it went through or not, but I sure hope so. It makes perfect sense. It is a waste of time and money to require companies to go through bureaucratic process, pay lawyers, and all that for toxicity tests for different proportioned compounds of the same elements used in inert, solid, round pellets. Across the board approval of the elements themselves would be much less expensive for the manufacturer, promote competition, and in the end it would make non-toxic shot cheaper for us hunters and give us more affordable alternatives to iron.

But hey, I guess patents, approval processes, and paperwork are good for the lawyers.

BTW - "Good" steel shot cost $15+ for 3" and $20+ for 3.5", here. 3.5" BC are $25.

Jeremiah



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