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 Post subject: Overshot wad Vs. undershot wad
PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:56 pm 
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I posted this on 16ga.com and I am also posting it here due to the larger number of folks who post here.

Does the placement of a card filler wad affect the performance of the load? I ask this because I like the overshot wad a little better but if it will cause a degradation of the performance of this particular load then i will go back to the under shot wad.

The load in question is the RGL hull, R16 wad, 7/8 oz. shot, 17.5 gr. Green Dot and a Win. 209 primer. The original load from the 5th Lyman book called for 18 gr. powder and a Remington primer but I was having several FTF's with that primer in my Browning 525 so I called Alliant and their recommendation was to decrease the powder by .5 gr. if I wanted to use the Win. primer.

Thanks for the help.




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 Post subject: re: Overshot wad Vs. undershot wad
PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 10:23 pm 
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Art, I take it that you are trying to make up the difference which that .5 grain less powder makes.

First, I would tend to think you could likely just adjust the crimp a bit deeper and overcome the problem right there.

That said, there all kinds of "overshot wads". Some are so hard, that they can be picked up and used again.

Let me say that this comes from experience with muzzle loading shotguns. There, one must use an over shot wad.

Some folks use half a fiber or felt wad. I would never even consider such, as I have had fiber wads blow right through the shot column, and make a donut pattern.

I used "Circle Fly" wads for years, back years ago. Those were the overshot wads, hard white card, that one could pick up and reuse again and again. I even used some numbers of them, spacing them in the shot charge, just to make it spread, and it worked.

Then I discovered another source of wads, which I much prefer, Mikes Wads, available from "Flintlocks Inc." Father and son outfit. His brown paper, soft overshot wads apparently just disintegrate upon firing. I have never found any trace of them out in front of the muzzles, after firing numerous of them.

Now, that said, Circle Fly has changed hands at least once, since I last ordered wads from them, and they very well may have changed to a better design/material by now.

I don't think I have any in 16 gage, or would offer to send you some of both, if you would like. I think I have 20, 12 and 10 gages, no 16's.

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 Post subject: re: Overshot wad Vs. undershot wad
PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:12 pm 
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Jugchoke, thanks for that info. The reason for the wad is that the Rem. R16 wad is a 1 oz. wad and I'm loading it with 7/8 oz of shot.

The wads I am using are cut from a Kellogg's cereal box. They are .025" thick. It just seems to make a better looking crimp putting them in over the shot but I haven't yet had the opportunity to pattern them. I hope to get to that in the next few days but I would like to know if it's worth a little cosmetic improvement. If not then they will go under the shot.


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 Post subject: re: Overshot wad Vs. undershot wad
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 5:24 am 
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Two things to remember -

You NEED an "overpowder" wad (or undershot wad, as you call it) to protect the wads and shot from the heat of the powder burning.

An "overshot" wad is merely to keep the shot in place on a muzzleloader or a roll-crimped shell.

BobK

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 Post subject: re: Overshot wad Vs. undershot wad
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 6:42 am 
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I never liked the idea of an overshot wad. While I did use an undershot wad at one time, I kept adjusting my crimp until I got it perfect. Tim

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 Post subject: re: Overshot wad Vs. undershot wad
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:50 am 
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I use a 24-gauge overshot card .030" in my 5/8 oz 12 gauge loads. It hasn't reduced my skeet scores any. I believe it contributes to a more complete powder burn under that light weight of shot, as well as providing a base for the petals so the crimp isn't dished. Typically, the overshot card seems to split into a couple or three paper-thin segments. Maybe if I used a full-gauge card, there might be some adverse effect, but so far so good.

Dan


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 Post subject: re: Overshot wad Vs. undershot wad
PostPosted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:54 pm 
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Hi Art....I'm Art too.....I use an overshot card just like yours except mine are cut from a Bisquick box....Probably not a major difference :) ...
At first I questioned over or under just like you are and got lots of opinions.....
Then one guy pointed out that rolled crimped shells had been used for....looong :shock: years...without anybody noticeing any impaired patterns so why didn't I just load up some of each and compair them?...
Well by gum that's just what I did.....

I found out using counted shot loads I could find no differences in the numbers (percentages) between over shot cards and under shot cards that were used for taking up space in the cup....not in hot cores, nor outer rings, nor fringes, nor quadrents,...nor was there any difference I could persieve (sp?) by eye (practiced with 30yrs exp) in the smoothness of the patterns...no doughnut holes or anything adverse.....
I tested #8 and #5... a hunting load and a target load....

I think the rumors of blown patterns by over shot cards might have begun when ammunition makers started useing the fold crimp....and it might just be a rumor that was started to promote the New Improved Folded Crimp Shells....All I know is that I don't see any....

ONE major difference I found is that sometimes the GD card would get stuck in the end of the drop tube of my 16ga grabber if I tried to put it in the shot cup first....a major PITA....test it yourself or go ahead and trust me and put it underneath..........Art

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 Post subject: Re: re: Overshot wad Vs. undershot wad
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:01 am 
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lizardbreath wrote:

ONE major difference I found is that sometimes the GD card would get stuck in the end of the drop tube of my 16ga grabber if I tried to put it in the shot cup first....a major PITA....test it yourself or go ahead and trust me and put it underneath..........Art


I shoot a 16 ga. recipe with a 3/32" thick, cork undershot wad, which I cut myself. I assemble it on a Mec Grabber. When I first got started, I used a 1/2" diameter undershot. The shot drop tube would sometimes pick up the undershot card. The shot wouldn't release. At least not at the right time...What a pain to clean an ounce of shot off the machine! Anyway, I switched to a .550 and that helped reduce the frequency of the problem. Another help was using a 20 ga. shot drop tube instead of the 16 ga. tube. Then it was harder for the tube to wedge over the cork.


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 Post subject: Re: Overshot wad Vs. undershot wad
PostPosted: Thu Jul 11, 2013 7:56 am 
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If your goal is to take up the space, using 7/8 oz of shot rather than 1 oz of shot, then another solution is to drop a Cheerio in on top of the shot before crimping. A Cheerio is the same volume as 1/8 oz of shot and creates the volume you need for a good crimp. It dissolves into powder when fired and doesn't affect the shot pattern. Mark



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