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 Post subject: Short Home Defense 20 gauge
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 5:38 am 
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Location: charleston, SC
Want a home defense shotgun that is short and will not cause undue recoil and ease of use, possibly for wife in last resort. Looking at pistol grip at 20gauge. Opinions and suggestions? If 20g available looking at a Moss 500 cruiser either tact or JIC.




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 Post subject: re: Short Home Defense 20 gauge
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:11 am 
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If you are determined to get you wife a 20 gauge, then be sure to let her practice with it a lot.

Do not get a pistol gripped model. Pistol grips look "cool", but are horrible. Get a full stocked model and cut it down an inch or two to fit her. The felt recoil will be much less with a full stock, and she will actually be able to aim a full stock shotgun.

And be sure to get some buckshot for the shotgun. Birdshot is especially poor in a 20 gauge.

See here: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot22.htm

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 Post subject: re: Short Home Defense 20 gauge
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:14 am 
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Yeah, that. :D


Bird shot is a cheap way to practice, though.


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 Post subject: re: Short Home Defense 20 gauge
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 9:56 am 
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While I completely respect the idea of getting a shotgun with less recoil for your wife, I still think you'd be making a mistake buying a 20ga.

Why?

In a time of emergency when she *might* actually need to use the shotgun, she's not going to feel the recoil...or likely even hear the report. Too much adrenaline...

When you're out practicing, you can buy "powder puff" type target loads--7/8oz or 1oz "light trap" loads, such as those offered by "Estate Cartridge" or Federal.

My girlfriend is 5'5" and 124lbs, and has no problem shooting five or six consective rounds of trap with her 12ga Mossberg...wearing a halter top!

The benefit of going with the 12ga will be ammo availability and price. In my neck of the woods, 12ga is 10-15% cheaper than 20ga. There are also 7 or 8 loads in 12ga for every one you find on the shelf in 20ga. There are usually 15 or so choices for slugs and buckshot in 12ga, while there is usually only 1 or 2 in 20ga....but perhaps your area is different.

There is a huge market out there of reduced recoil 12ga slugs and buckshot...and some great aftermarket recoil pads to help fight off the recoil. There are loads out there that are every bit as (or more) effective that a standard 20ga load with about the same level of reduced recoil.

One last option is to buy a shotgun with two different barrels. IIRC, you can buy the mossberg 500 in 12ga with an 18.5" and 28" barrel for around $240. You could do the majority of your practice with the longer barrel (reduced recoil & noise) and leave the shorter barrel for occasional practice and HD.

Just my opinion...take it or leave it.
Either will be more than effective in a dark hallway when things go bump in the night...but from a monetary standpoint, I think the 12ga would serve you better.


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 Post subject: re: Short Home Defense 20 gauge
PostPosted: Tue Sep 16, 2008 10:16 am 
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Mossberg 20ga Tactical 6 shot.

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 Post subject: re: Short Home Defense 20 gauge
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:04 am 
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A 20 gauge is ok, but a 12 doesn't really have that much more recoil, and as previously stated, easier to find ammo for. Practice with the cheapest load (birdshot) and for HD use, load the gun with the most lethal load that won't cause shoot-through of your interior walls.

I recommend a pistol grip, but with an attached stock for ease of aiming (hip or shoulder). A pistol grip with no stock is much more difficult to aim than one with a stock. I also recommend a pistol grip on the fore end. It's like watering the flowers... Point and squeeze...


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 Post subject: Re: re: Short Home Defense 20 gauge
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:59 am 
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Bullockracing wrote:
A 20 gauge is ok, but a 12 doesn't really have that much more recoil, and as previously stated, easier to find ammo for. Practice with the cheapest load (birdshot) and for HD use, load the gun with the most lethal load


So far, so good.
:wink:

Quote:
that won't cause shoot-through of your interior walls.


Nope, wrong.

Any load that will STOP a bad guy will shoot through several walls.

See here: http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot14.htm

Load a defensive shotgun with buckshot. It is the only load that will reach the FBI minimum of 12 inches penetration in BG.

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 Post subject: Re: re: Short Home Defense 20 gauge
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 10:17 am 
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BLUF: any shoot-through in your house has the possibility of killing an innocent bystander, and the odds are more likely that you will accidentally kill someone in the house before you shoot at a bad guy. Choose your ammo wisely based on your home defense scenario.

Old_Painless wrote:
Any load that will STOP a bad guy will shoot through several walls.

Load a defensive shotgun with buckshot. It is the only load that will reach the FBI minimum of 12 inches penetration in BG.


Anything other than buckshot is the equivalent of telling their shoes are untied, I know. :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: re: Short Home Defense 20 gauge
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 11:15 am 
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Bullockracing wrote:
BLUF: any shoot-through in your house has the possibility of killing an innocent bystander, and the odds are more likely that you will accidentally kill someone in the house before you shoot at a bad guy. Choose your ammo wisely based on your home defense scenario.


Nope, choose your ammo based on what will STOP a bad guy from killing your or your loved ones.

If your main concern was "not shooting through walls", you ought to get a BB gun. But BB guns will not stop bad guys.

If you are shooting anyone in a home defense situation, that means your life is in danger. You will want to have a load that will assure your life is safe.

Quote:
Old_Painless wrote:
Any load that will STOP a bad guy will shoot through several walls.

Load a defensive shotgun with buckshot. It is the only load that will reach the FBI minimum of 12 inches penetration in BG.


Anything other than buckshot is the equivalent of telling their shoes are untied, I know. :roll:


I didn't say that, so please do not misquote me.

I am not trying to offend you, Bullockracing, but you are posting mis-information that could get someone killed. You do not know what you are talking about.

No personal offense, but you are simply wrong. And as long as you post wrong information, I will refute what you post.

Perhaps a little education would be helpful. Look at the sticky post at the top of this page titled "12 Gauge Wound Profiles". That post clearly shows that only buckshot will reach the required minimum penetration.

Therefore, do not recommend birdshot.

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 Post subject: re: Short Home Defense 20 gauge
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:18 pm 
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we've gone over this soooooooo many times...

birdshot is for birds, and cheap tactical training ie. steel plate knock downs and such...

birdshot is for birds, buckshot is for bad guys... but it's your life and loved ones.

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 Post subject: re: Short Home Defense 20 gauge
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:27 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:56 pm
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Model 870™
20-Gauge Express® Synthetic 7-Shot With Knoxx® SpecOps™ Stock

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http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/premier_dealer_exclusives/model_870_express_7-shot_20-ga.asp

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 Post subject: re: Short Home Defense 20 gauge
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 12:28 pm 
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Holy broken records... Couldn't resist the urge to poke the bear...

I never said to use birdshot. I said to use the most lethal round that won't cause shoot-through. If you don't know what your chosen load will do inside your house, you haven't done your homework. If you shoot someone unintentionally, you defeat the purpose of having a gun for HD.

Is the definition of STOP the Webster's definition, or is it when you drop the BG with one round???

The box o truth link only serves as a teaser to show what a couple of rounds will do through sheetrock, not the stopping power of said rounds. There are sources that do, that's just not one of them.

If we are going to base our decision of what ammo to use based solely on FBI (government) statistics, we should also look at the statistics from the same government that says you are more likely to accidentally shoot yourself or someone in your own household that an intruding bad guy.


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 Post subject: re: Short Home Defense 20 gauge
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:09 pm 
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applause to old painless.

IIRC the best man stopper/minimal wall penetration ratio is the AR-15 w/ .223 cartridge. however counter intuitive that may be, it is based on frangibility and yaw of the bullet.

if you dont want your walls penetrated, build a concrete house.

or your final option is to put all bullets/pellets through the BG to reduce wall penetration via reduction in kinematic energy through deceleration on way through BG.

if you choose to go with the last option, you better start training(if you are not comfortable already).


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 Post subject: Re: re: Short Home Defense 20 gauge
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:18 pm 
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bscman wrote:
My girlfriend is 5'5" and 124lbs, and has no problem shooting five or six consective rounds of trap with her 12ga Mossberg...wearing a halter top!



How about a pic of that?? :lol:


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 Post subject: re: Short Home Defense 20 gauge
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:47 pm 
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The key to avoiding "shoot thru" is to put as many pellets as possible on the BG, not the surrounding drywall :wink: BG's stop pellets much better than drywall.

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 Post subject: Re: re: Short Home Defense 20 gauge
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 2:51 pm 
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Bullockracing wrote:
Holy broken records... Couldn't resist the urge to poke the bear...


That's the difference in you and me. I'm not here to "poke bears". I'm here to help people.

Quote:
I never said to use birdshot. I said to use the most lethal round that won't cause shoot-through.


The only shotgun round that will not penetrate sheetrock walls is birdshot. It also is a very poor penetrator for bad guys.

Quote:
Is the definition of STOP the Webster's definition, or is it when you drop the BG with one round???


Stop means stop. It means to stop the bad guy from doing whatever he is doing that is a threat to your life.

And the only thing that will do that is to disrupt the CNS. To disrupt the CNS, your shot must reach the CNS or major vital organs. That takes 12 inches of penetration. Only buckshot or slugs will reach that minimum penetration.

Quote:
The box o truth link only serves as a teaser to show what a couple of rounds will do through sheetrock, not the stopping power of said rounds. There are sources that do, that's just not one of them.


That is correct.

The link I gave you at the top of this page tells the tale about effectiveness of various rounds. So does this one:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm

Birdshot does not work. Buckshot does.

Quote:
If we are going to base our decision of what ammo to use based solely on FBI (government) statistics, we should also look at the statistics from the same government that says you are more likely to accidentally shoot yourself or someone in your own household that an intruding bad guy.


Those are not real statistics. You just made them up.

The FBI never made such statements. They did however, learn a thing or two in the past 50 years and know what works against bad guys and what does not.

The FBI does not use birdshot in their shotguns.

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 Post subject: Re: re: Short Home Defense 20 gauge
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 4:52 pm 
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TheBanker wrote:
bscman wrote:
My girlfriend is 5'5" and 124lbs, and has no problem shooting five or six consective rounds of trap with her 12ga Mossberg...wearing a halter top!



How about a pic of that?? :lol:


Sorry, she won't let me post anything but these two pics...
Try not to enjoy them too much, though!

Image

Image
(We each went through a full case of shells that afternoon....)

This is why you choose your woman wisely...and make sure you take her shooting with you well before things get serious. I'm not marrying no woman that can't handle a handful of 12ga 3" slugs.


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 Post subject: re: Short Home Defense 20 gauge
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:47 pm 
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you... are a lucky guy.

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 Post subject: Re: re: Short Home Defense 20 gauge
PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 9:39 pm 
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bscman wrote:
While I completely respect the idea of getting a shotgun with less recoil for your wife, I still think you'd be making a mistake buying a 20ga.

Why?

In a time of emergency when she *might* actually need to use the shotgun, she's not going to feel the recoil...or likely even hear the report. Too much adrenaline...


I agree 100% with these statements. I had a 300 Win Mag for elk hunting. It provided quite a recoil during practice shooting but in action, in the field, I never felt the recoil.

I would definitely go with the gun providing the most impact. That is the 12 ga. Hopefully, one never has to use it to defend themselves, but if you do, you want the very best.


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 Post subject: Re: re: Short Home Defense 20 gauge
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 3:12 pm 
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Old_Painless wrote:
Stop means stop. It means to stop the bad guy from doing whatever he is doing that is a threat to your life.

And the only thing that will do that is to disrupt the CNS. To disrupt the CNS, your shot must reach the CNS or major vital organs. That takes 12 inches of penetration. Only buckshot or slugs will reach that minimum penetration.


So whatever wound he gets from your first shot (assuming you hit him) won't make him stop "doing whatever he is doing that is a threat to your life" unless you hit the CNS/vital organs? If he makes a run for it with a gruesome and painful stomach wound it doesn't count?

Quote:
Birdshot does not work. Buckshot does.


Anything coming out of the end of your barrel will "work". It's called a Measure of Effectiveness. Rubber shot is less effective than lead. Small shot is less effective than large shot. Slower shot is less effective than faster shot. And this is something we all know. Anyone who thinks that 00 buck is the best solution for every situation at any time is myopic. My point is to choose wisely.

Quote:
Quote:
If we are going to base our decision of what ammo to use based solely on FBI (government) statistics, we should also look at the statistics from the same government that says you are more likely to accidentally shoot yourself or someone in your own household that an intruding bad guy.


Those are not real statistics. You just made them up.

The FBI never made such statements.


The FBI number of 12 inches is your quote, and yes I've read the study and it is for LE application to tactical situations, not exclusively for HD.

For statistics that I didn't make up, a quick Google search turns up this:
http://library.med.utah.edu/WebPath/TUTORIAL/GUNS/GUNSTAT.html

So, accidental deaths are "only" three times more frequent than legal interventions.

From your link to ar15.com:
Quote:
I know you're not planning on missing, and that you figure you'll be able to put a couple of shots center-of-mass with no problems. Don't overestimate your ability when the lead starts flying. There won't be a perfect Weaver stance involved, trigger discipline will go to hell, and carefully aimed shots will be non-existent. How many times have you seen shootouts on "Cops" where they're 2 yards apart, shoot a bunch of times, and yet every shot manages to miss?


So we tell the noobs to load up with ammo that will penetrate their entire house - noobs that are 3 times more likely to accidentally kill someone other than the BG - noobs that are not trained enough with to put all the pellets in the BG.

The birdshot versus buckshot argument is crap. There is no black and white canned answer. Every gun owner has to assume responsibility for the safety of the occupants FIRST. Everyone with the capacity for abstract thought should draw their own conclusions, not get flamed for erring on the side of safety.




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