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 Post subject: Turkish Shotguns Durability
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 1:17 am 
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Location: Lebanon
Me wrote:
Each market in any part of the world has specific brand names of shotguns. Here, where I live, we have the Beretta Benelli and almost all other Italians brand names. We have also the Americans like Winchester Browning, we have also the Mossberg. Our market contains shotgun having a price around 1000USD and above, and the rest of brand names are Turkish shotguns. We have also Spanish, they are also expensive.
The question is: if a friend asks for an advice to purchase a shotgun and he does not have enough money to buy the expensive shotguns then we have to advise him to go for Turkish shotguns. In the Turkish category, as I know, we can somewhat trust Stoeger, Sarsilmaz, and Yildiz, and perhaps Huglu. The durability of the any gun can be given only by time, I mean time only can judge if this gun is durable. For example Stoeger couldn’t resist on shooting 250 shotshells because a screw felled down from it because of the vibration while shooting continuously, while with Winchester sx3 you can non stop shooting. All expensive 1000 - 1500 -3000 USD prove with time that they are durable, how can I give my word to another friend on the durability of Yildiz, Sarsilmaz and Huglu for example? Do we have to try these guns for years to reach a conclusion? If we have a shop for selling guns, do we recommend these guns for someone who wants to pay 300USD only? Another opinion says why not buying a Mossberg instead? Well Mossberg is very very heavy for most of the people here.

Shotgunguru Replied:
Hussein,

Where I am Italian shotguns are the most recognised brand.

In the low end Russian guns have proved to be the most reliable and long lived. They are not things of beauty, but they do pass proof tests, in a CIP recognised proof house, they are internally sound, with well engineered parts that are properly hardened. The problems that have surfaced with Russian guns involve peripheral systems, like single triggers and ejectors, never basic safety.

In the Birmingham proof house they have experimented with destructive tests on Russian shotguns and they failed to cause ruptures. I will not detail the tests in case someone tries to repeat them!

As far as I know, Turkey is not a signatory to the CIP proof convention and shotguns made there do not pass objective proof. The ones I have seen were mechanically disappointing.

Me replied
Thanks. I forgot to mention about Russian shotguns. We have them in the market. But some people prefer to ask for Turkish because the Russian is not nice looking, and they get rusty quickly. Some people complain about the weight, Russian shotguns are not light weight.

Yes it is true Turkey is not a signatory to the CIP proof convention, but this is a single problem or issue regarding Turkish shotguns. Is this single problem sufficient to not buy and sell Turkish shotguns? Durability is not only related to barrel, what about the durability of the whole Turkish shotgun? Anyone had a Sarsilmaz a Huglu a Yildiz a Stoeger for years the fact that it gave him any idea about its durability?

I know, maybe I am wrong, that Beretta test Stoger barrel, but this is not enough to say Stoeger durability is excellent, because while I was shooting with my Stoeger 2000 a screw felled down on the ground and the same happened to my friend with his Stoeger same model. Maybe no one can answer this question; the time only can do...

Any Comments?



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 Post subject: re: Turkish Shotguns Durability
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 6:20 am 
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well i didn't have to wait years to figure out my Stoeger o/u that was made in Brazil was not up to the task. on only the third box of shells and only the third time out shooting it and it broke all ready. hopefully my o/u is on the way back to Stoeger and i don't think the one year warrenty will be enough for me to keep it. is there a lemon law for guns!!! i asked Dick's i f i could get my money back to buy something else, but that didn't work either.


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 Post subject: re: Turkish Shotguns Durability
PostPosted: Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:21 am 
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The Stoeger factory in Istanbul (formerly Vursan) in 2007 installed the highest tech CNC tooling available anywhere in the gun making industry. This is a great step forward but of no consequence if they don't have an effective quality assurance program in place. They have the ability and the metallurgy to be among the best gun makers in the business. They make pistols and shotguns on site and actions for other brands.

That being said:

Learn by experience and let us know your problems so that we may gain from your experience. The hex head screw is a minor problem that can be prevented by blue Locktite. I highly recommend the Steoeger 2000 semiauto but I do Locktite the screw in and install a #10008 Limbsaver pad on it to tame the recoil.. Then you have a decent, reliable gun at a reasonable price.

Most hardware stores have scews in stock that can be substitutes for the factory screw. Find it, grind it to proper length and use the gun until Steoger sends you the factory screw.

As for Brazilian made O/Us, I am hesitant to recommend any of the economy O/Us due to the amount of labor that is required to do it right. Some work OK, most don't for long. That is why I am not buying an economy O/U. I don't have the funds to buy a quality model. To make an O/U right, even with third world wages, would cost many times what they sell the guns for.

I only have 2 O/Us now and they were not economy to the original owners. They were to me. One is a Churchill with a 25" barrel in 20 gauge. The other is a Nikko made in Japan. I bought these from pawn shops that didn't know their true value.

The Stoeger O/Us made in Brazil are getting somewhat better in quality but I'm not ready to buy one until I hear some better quality reviews.

One of my favorite guns is the Stoeger 2000 New Model made with the new high tech CNC toolings at their Istanbul plant. I have a couple of safes full of guns that I have gathered over the past 50 years. The Franchi 48 in 20 gauge is my go to gun and the Stoeger 2000 is my go to 12 gauge.

By learning from other's experiences, this forum has saved me many problems. I can't answer the question of why gun makers do not QC their guns. It is not isolated to any one company. In my opinion, QC is one of the first line items to be cut when factories get into a cost cutting mode. The gun makers all over the world are cutting costs and raising prices. QC, QA, or whatever you want to call their quality checkers are pretnear non-existent, IMHO. Just read the various forums and determine for yourself the quality of the current crop of guns of all brands. As for Stoeger 2000, consider how many of these problems could be solved by test firing and a dab of Locktite.

IMO, Stoeger's Turkish factory has the ability to make excellent guns with very fine tolerances. But, if they don't QC them, the customer will and the vicious cycle begins. Fortunately, most of their guns work just fine considering the thousands they turn out each month. It is the few that don't work right that give them a bad reputation.

Happy hunting!!

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 Post subject: re: Turkish Shotguns Durability
PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:12 am 
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I must edit this post before sending it and say that i agree with Eve and that I have enjoyed reading his post.

Plese can you explain? What is a blue Locktite? Thanks

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 Post subject: re: Turkish Shotguns Durability
PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 10:55 am 
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Blue Locktite vs Red Locktite: It is a special type of glue. The Red really sticks the screw so that it is almost impossible to remove. The Blue holds the screw in place but allows you to remove it with a bit of force.

To use Locktite, remove the screw and put a drop of Locktite on the threads of the screw and replace it while the Locktite is still damp. It comes in small tubes and can be bought at most hardware stores. It is used by auto shops, gun shops, etc., to keep screws from vibrating loose.

I recommend that owners of Franchi I-12s and Stoeger 2000s remove the Torx screw and put a drop of blue locktite on it so that this problem won't occur.

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 Post subject: re: Turkish Shotguns Durability
PostPosted: Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:45 pm 
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EV, Well said and I do have the #10008 limbsaver on mine but I have not lost or have problems with the screw comeing out. I think it is in part of the max-4 camo paint might be holding it in place. and t osome of you that might have wondered where I have been I just been out working 2 jobs and just had to get on to see what all you are writein in here! lol nice to see you EV. hope your doing good.


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 Post subject: re: Turkish Shotguns Durability
PostPosted: Sat Nov 08, 2008 11:03 am 
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smilerman, I'm doing better. One of my sons took me hunting yesterday and I bagged a nice buck. That makes 2 this year so far.

Most of the time, I read the threads here and post when I think I can be of help.

You guys are my family during my recuperation. And after, also. I appreciate you all very much.

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 Post subject: re: Turkish Shotguns Durability
PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:20 pm 
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the barrels for all the BENELLI shotguns are MADE IN TURKEY now,not ITALY
wonder what that says for durability


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 Post subject: re: Turkish Shotguns Durability
PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:44 am 
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The Beretta Group outsources parts to their other factories and assembles them in either Turkey or Italy. The country of assembly is stamped on the guns. Only the Stoeger and the Cougar pistols are assembled in Turkey. The other Beretta, Benelli, and Franchi guns are assembled in Italy from parts made in the most economical factory.

The Stoeger doubles are contracted out to Armentino in Brazil and are made wholly in Brazil, then imported to the US.

The Stoeger SSA plant in Istanbul "upholds quality European standards", per Beretta.

Turkey is a sleeping giant that improves every year. Now that many of their factories have disposed of their hacksaws, dull files, and cold chisels, their quality will soon be, if not now, on par with any country. The latest of high tech computerized tooling has been installed in the Stoeger SSA and the Smith and Wesson factories.

A machining made on CNC equipment is top quality no matter where it is made. Every piece is the same.

The main factor with Turkish guns is that they are usually copies of other guns, not original in design. This can be a plus if the gun being copied was a good gun.

Michael Kassnar, President of Charles Daly, goes onto the CD site almost daily to personally answer complaints from CD owners and to accept thanks for satisfied owners. He pays shipping both ways if a CD owner has a problem.

Stoeger has a toll free number and tries to satisfy complaints and to ship parts to owners of guns made by the Beretta Group. I own two of their products and have been satisfied with their reliability.

Whether we like it or not, Turkey is a sleeping giant where quality parts can be made cheap; if the factory has CNC tooling.

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 Post subject: re: Turkish Shotguns Durability
PostPosted: Fri Jan 02, 2009 1:49 pm 
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Even though turkish made guns are getting better I can only hope that someday, We the U.S. will someday make nice guns again. and not only make them nice but to make them affordable as well. Maybe we can get the older machines of the turkish companys. LOL




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