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 Post subject: Case's Light 20 gauge load in subgauge tubes?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:47 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 9:11 pm
Posts: 165
Has anyone used Case's Light 20 gauge load, i.e. 11.6 gr. Promo with 11/16 oz. shot, extensively in their 20 gauge tubes?

Any negative effects?

What about this load with #8 shot? All I have is #8.

Thanks in advance for your response.

Bill




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 Post subject: re: Case's Light 20 gauge load in subgauge tubes?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:16 pm 
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Did you not see this in the revised listing for that load.

If this recipe is to be shot in tubes, I highly recommend using the lower powder charge of 11.6 gr. from a MEC No. 20 bushing.

That, and 11/16 oz. of shot, is what I use.

By "tubes" I'm not talking about chokes or even necessarily the various gauge-reducing inserts, but rather full-length subgauge tubes such as Brileys or Kolars, the metal thickness of whose 20 gauge chambers is exceptionally thin.
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 Post subject: re: Case's Light 20 gauge load in subgauge tubes?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 10:26 pm 
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The day I use a fast burning 12 ga. powder in a 20 ga. gun, no matter how light a load, is the day you can make book that o'le Dave has gone completely bonkers!!!

The use of Green Dot is very risky IMHO and the use of the equivalent of Red Dot, (Promo) is pure insanity.

NO!!! I would never use it in tube sets.

I never argued thus subject with Case as I like the old gentleman, and he truly has extraordinary knowledge in the science of reloading. However, I vehemently disagree with his suggested use of this powder in the 20 gauge.

And I don't care if he did have it tested.

Powder manufacturers have some of the best ballisticions in the World, and have extensive test equipment to use in their work. If the powder company's don't recommend the powder for that use, then pray tell me why anyone would, or should, get the notion that they knew more than the people that REALLY know the whole scoop do. Pure insanity. Not everthing that shines is gold.

DLM

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 Post subject: re: Case's Light 20 gauge load in subgauge tubes?
PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:46 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:06 pm
Posts: 145
Location: WI
I've shot 5000+ (well past half way in my second case of wads) in a 682 Gold with Briley tubes. No problems to date. Advantages to this load are cost, availability of components etc. The disadvantages are clearly spelled out by DL.

I informally patterned the load with Briley skeet chokes and it patterned much tighter. I assume this is a function of the reduced velocity. In some of the original posts about this load Case recommends #9 shot to keep pellet count up. Based on my pattern I don't think shot size will matter because the pattern is so tight.


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 Post subject: re: Case's Light 20 gauge load in subgauge tubes?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 3:16 am 
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Have I cracked a 20 gauge tube, YES and that was just shooting standard pressure loads!!!!!

Cracking a tube is a Major PITA to get repaired, and temping faith by shooting higher pressure loads in such is way more that I would every want to push my luck. If you read Cases last write up on the subject, even he pushes anyone away from using them in tubes at the 1200 FPS range and suggests Universal or Unique instead.

If you looking to save some pennies, then just use Unique. Myself, I use Universal clays in 20 and 28 and am not about to change (burns clean and spent way too much time working up loads that patterned correctly to change now).

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=94291
Note that he states to drop the charge down to 11.6 from 12.4 at 1209 fps for tubes, which will drop the speed and tighten up the pattern.


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 Post subject: Re: re: Case's Light 20 gauge load in subgauge tubes?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:37 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:30 am
Posts: 120
Location: Central MA
D L Marcum wrote:
I never argued thus subject with Case as I like the old gentleman, and he truly has extraordinary knowledge in the science of reloading. However, I vehemently disagree with his suggested use of this powder in the 20 gauge.

And I don't care if he did have it tested. DLM


I believe that Marcum's concern is warranted if the SAMI for 20ga tubes is around 12k psi.

Case provides a table here:
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=145037

Notice, the average pressure of 11,160 psi and a maximum pressure under 12k psi. However, the standard deviation of 377.9 psi suggests a more disturbing picture. If the distribution of chamber pressures between rounds is statistically normal, then approximately 13 rounds per thousand will meet or exceed 12k psi.

With a standard deviation of 377 psi, a safer average pressure would be about 10,600psi-- this average pressure yields approximately 1 round per 10,000 at or above SAMI rather than the 13 rounds per 1,000 with Case's average pressure of 11,160 psi.


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 Post subject: re: Case's Light 20 gauge load in subgauge tubes?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:10 am 
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Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 9:11 pm
Posts: 165
Curly wrote:
Quote:
Did you not see this in the revised listing for that load....


Yes, I did see that. After reading this forum for a year I take Dave Marcum's word & Case's word as gospel ( and your word, too, Curly). However, in this case their opinions are diametrically opposed.

I have loaded up a couple of flats to shoot in a 20 ga. Cynergy. The few I have shot in the Cynergy shoot beautifully. However, I just bought a used 682 w/Kolar tubes & sold the Cynergy. I obviously have qualms about shooting the shells in the Beretta. After reading Dave's response, these qualms are justified.

I was hoping to get some responses from those who have actually used the loads in subgauge tubes and perhaps save myself some grief if the experience was negative or shoot the shells with confidence if the experience was positive.

I would like to thank all the members of this forum for the vast knowledge they have provided and their unselfish acts.

Bill


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 Post subject: Re: re: Case's Light 20 gauge load in subgauge tubes?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:26 am 
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rebelpenn wrote:
Curly wrote:
Quote:
Did you not see this in the revised listing for that load....


Yes, I did see that. After reading this forum for a year I take Dave Marcum's word & Case's word as gospel ( and your word, too, Curly). However, in this case their opinions are diametrically opposed.



Bill
Hold on there Tiger, Those folks down in Georgetown took that Jones guy's word as Gospel, and look what it got them. I try to give decent answers, BUT, I am fallible and have made a few blunders, here and elsewhere. Always reason out any answers that you might get, and ask for clarification if required. I/ we, am/are just human folks too.

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Let us endeavor so to live so that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry.
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 Post subject: re: Case's Light 20 gauge load in subgauge tubes?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:57 pm 
Diamond Grade
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Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 1:17 am
Posts: 1151
Location: Maine
I had a ¾ oz. Promo load pressure tested, but specified a Rem. STS primer with the idea it woull keep pressures to a minimum, and got nowhere near SAAMI max.
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtop ... ssure+test

When Case et al. got near max. pressures using Win. primers and cases, I kind of shied away from Promo with this payload in favor of Green Dot (GD). Besides, GD is bulky enough to load ¾ oz. using orange dusters vs. OEM, which are ~$30 cheaper than OEM per 5K.

I use this powder primarily for 5/8 oz. loads nowadays, and use GD for 3/4.
Interestingly, I cut open a few factory 20g GunClubs, and found 14.5 grains of a powder that looked like Unique/GD without the green flakes. With a 14.5 gr. charge weight, I suspect the burn rate would be similar to GD vs. Unique.
I also have witnessed 20g subgauge tubes cracking with the use of facrory ammo, and would feel better using my 5/8 oz. weenie loads than factory GunClubs.


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 Post subject: Re: re: Case's Light 20 gauge load in subgauge tubes?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:18 am 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2006 5:24 pm
Posts: 5789
D L Marcum wrote:
The day I use a fast burning 12 ga. powder in a 20 ga. gun, no matter how light a load, is the day you can make book that o'le Dave has gone completely bonkers!!!

The use of Green Dot is very risky IMHO and the use of the equivalent of Red Dot, (Promo) is pure insanity.

NO!!! I would never use it in tube sets.

I never argued thus subject with Case as I like the old gentleman, and he truly has extraordinary knowledge in the science of reloading. However, I vehemently disagree with his suggested use of this powder in the 20 gauge.

And I don't care if he did have it tested.

Powder manufacturers have some of the best ballisticions in the World, and have extensive test equipment to use in their work. If the powder company's don't recommend the powder for that use, then pray tell me why anyone would, or should, get the notion that they knew more than the people that REALLY know the whole scoop do. Pure insanity. Not everthing that shines is gold.


Reading this is bittersweet.

On one hand, it's nice to know there was a silent contingent agreeing with me when I stood up to Case about these oddball wildcats he concocted.

On the other, it seems like the only people vocal about anything was his cult following. That kinda made me the Reloading Forum's sacrificial lamb. :cry:


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 Post subject: re: Case's Light 20 gauge load in subgauge tubes?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:39 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 2:03 pm
Posts: 304
Location: Jacksonville,FL
I cracked tubes twice with International Clays. Brileys.


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 Post subject: re: Case's Light 20 gauge load in subgauge tubes?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:52 am 
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Joined: Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:43 pm
Posts: 505
Location: Texas
I've used the 11/16 w/ Promo and Clays in my gun with tubes with out issues. It just boils down to is it worth the cost difference, no. People scream about cracking tubes, I've seen tubes crack from factory loads, it's not like it never happens. Powder manufactures would make less money if they only offered 2 powders for sale. The fact that the 20g Red dot load is a published load in certain cases bears that out. Shooters 15 years ago weren't keeling over on the fields from this. And I'll take a lab's test results that has nothing to gain over a powder manufacturers any day.


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 Post subject: Re: re: Case's Light 20 gauge load in subgauge tubes?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 8:32 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:40 pm
Posts: 174
Bill[/quote] Hold on there Tiger, Those folks down in Georgetown took that Jones guy's word as Gospel, and look what it got them. I try to give decent answers, BUT, I am fallible and have made a few blunders, here and elsewhere. Always reason out any answers that you might get, and ask for clarification if required. I/ we, am/are just human folks too.[/quote]


Seems it wasn't just those folks down there in Jonestown that were fooled. See who else at:


SOURCE: [url]http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/JohnJudge/Jonestown.html


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 Post subject: Re: re: Case's Light 20 gauge load in subgauge tubes?
PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 8:36 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:05 pm
Posts: 1799
360 wrote:
And I'll take a lab's test results that has nothing to gain over a powder manufacturers any day.


I'd like to know a little bit more about the lab.



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