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 Post subject: Red Dot sights vs. Holographic sights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:33 am 
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I'm wondering what different advantages or disadvantages each type of site has when comparing the tube-like red dot sights and the more open holographic sights. I've never used either, but am curious about them for both shotgun and pistol purposes.


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 Post subject: re: Red Dot sights vs. Holographic sights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:56 am 
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They're all "holographic" in principle.

You have a bit more field of view with the open types VS the enclosed tube types.

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 Post subject: re: Red Dot sights vs. Holographic sights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:33 am 
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As FMD said, the FOV is generally less affected by the holosight (which is typically a vertical screen with the HUD projected on it) than the RDS which has a dot projected on an internal lens.
Battery life is usually longer with the quality RDS like an Aimpoint. EOTechs have gotten some bad reports on battery life. IIRC the 512/556 types have a battery life of about 200 hours. The M2/M3/M4 types have battery life in the hundreds of thousands of hours, which equates to several years of use.
Size is another area. The Eotechs require a pretty substantial piece of real estate to land on. The Aimpoints are less, and generally don't have the larger housings for the two batteries required by the EOThingies.
The Aimpoints have generally had better reliability, QC, and durability than some of the recent EOThingies.
If I think of more, I'll post it. I'm in training right now so I have to split my attention.

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 Post subject: Re: re: Red Dot sights vs. Holographic sights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 5:57 pm 
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m24shooter wrote:
The M2/M3/M4 types have battery life in the hundreds of thousands of hours, which equates to several years of use.


Not so sure about that. I've seen quite a few Aimpoint Comp M2's with dead batteries due to being left on overnight, and these batteries had only been in the weapon for a couple of weeks at most, and not left on continuously.


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 Post subject: re: Red Dot sights vs. Holographic sights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 6:19 pm 
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Then you have flukey M2s. There have been Aimpoints that have gone entire deployments without replacing batteries. I cannot remember the last time I changed my Aimpoint batteries, and I've left mine on for weeks when I forgot to turn it off putting it in the safe.
The new Aimpoints don't even have "off" settings.

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 Post subject: re: Red Dot sights vs. Holographic sights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 8:53 pm 
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This was with ones in basic and ones in my current unit. maybe i'll sacrifice a battery just for kicks =]


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 Post subject: re: Red Dot sights vs. Holographic sights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 9:07 pm 
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Well keep in mind that a determined PV2 with enough time can damage an anvil with a rubber mallet.
Another thing is that the current M3 and M4 CET is way ahead of the older M68s. The M68 does not have the same battery life as the new circuitry.
They are the state of the badass art.

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 Post subject: Re: re: Red Dot sights vs. Holographic sights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:54 pm 
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m24shooter wrote:
Well keep in mind that a determined PV2 with enough time can damage an anvil with a rubber mallet.
Another thing is that the current M3 and M4 CET is way ahead of the older M68s. The M68 does not have the same battery life as the new circuitry.
They are the state of the badass art.


Very, VERY true ;)

I'm still a fan of the JPoints. A lot of them are still going strong, and they've been on for almost three years now, one one cr2032 (i think) button cell.

OP: JPoints are almost like mini EOTechs. If you smack them with something they'll break, so kind of fragile, but they make guard wings fro the side that protect them from most things.


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 Post subject: re: Red Dot sights vs. Holographic sights
PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2009 10:58 pm 
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Yup. I'm currently testing a Trijicon MRD, which is their version of the JPoint. It uses the same mount, but comes waterproof. I've been running it on an SPX, but I got it to piggy back on an ACOG.
On the Trij you can double up the batteries with 1036 (I think) and double the LED brightness. That's what I've been running. Can the JP run like that?

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 Post subject: re: Red Dot sights vs. Holographic sights
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:53 am 
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Thanks for your input thus far. Could anyone comment on other benefits of each? For example, does one provide quicker acquisition? Is one easier to see in dim conditions? In bright conditions? Is one more durable?


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 Post subject: re: Red Dot sights vs. Holographic sights
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 8:25 pm 
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Honestly, for a shotgun, I'd get an EOTech with this reticle:

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It seems like it would provide quick target aquisition if you just need a hit and need it fast, and if you take some time to aim, that center dot would be great. That's what I plan on getting, eventually.

The JPoints are cool, but very small. They're better suited to pistols in my opinion, but I'd like to play with one on a shotgun just for fun. As soon as I can get a rail mount for one I can provide some more insight.

The Aimpoint Comp M2 (the only one I have experience with) is fine, but it's big and doesnt offer the field of view of the others because you are looking through a tube, instead of at a plate of plastic/glass and therfore being able to see more of what's going on around you. They also have the disadvantage of using a non-standard battery. EOTechs can use AA's, and the JPoints use CR2032 button cells which are very common.

m24shooter: if your optics use the same battery as the real JPoint then I'm sure it could be doubled up, because those 1036 or maybe the 2036 or 2016 (cant recall which) are the same diameter but about half as thick, so yea it should be possible. I dont have any batteries to test though, and I think a Jpoint that bright would burn out faster (LEDs have a bad tendency for that) and it would kill your eyes at night. I still want to try it though =]


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 Post subject: Re: re: Red Dot sights vs. Holographic sights
PostPosted: Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:42 pm 
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Idek wrote:
Thanks for your input thus far. Could anyone comment on other benefits of each? For example, does one provide quicker acquisition? Is one easier to see in dim conditions? In bright conditions? Is one more durable?

The Aimpoints (M2,M3,M4, and Micros) all use a dot. These are usually 2 or 4 MOA. The older M2s are 3 MOA. I've got one, and it can be hard to tell the difference. The 4 is easier to pick up, while the 2 is good for shooting 2-300M and also with the 3x mag unit.
The EOTech uses the ret shown by inh. The center dot is 1MOA for fine aiming, and the large circle is 65MOA. The EO image is kind of fuzzy; it does not quite appear as solidly as the pictures show it. Some people do not like them, and I think certain vision problems have issues seeing it or adjusting to it. There are also a few other variants, such as rets that have BDC dots descending from the center dot for 2,4,600M, etc.
For speed, a lot of people like the simplicity of the dot. Some people like the "focusing" effect of the outer ring on the EO. Personal choice.
They are both adjustable for brightness, both have NVG models that will have several NVG settings. The higher the ret brightness, the quicker the battery drain.
For durability, they are both pretty tough. The EO is supposed to be usable as long as you can see the screen, and there is enough screen left to show the ret on.
The Aimpoints, as stated, can be a little more limiting in terms of FOV because you are looking through a tube. They also tend to work better pushed out forward on the rifle/shotgun. The EO has a good FOV because there is less to obstruct vision. I have used the M2/M68 for 10 years and the FOV restriction isn't really a factor to me and I don't even notice it.

inh wrote:
m24shooter: if your optics use the same battery as the real JPoint then I'm sure it could be doubled up, because those 1036 or maybe the 2036 or 2016 (cant recall which) are the same diameter but about half as thick, so yea it should be possible.

Same batteries. With the single battery in there it is plenty bright. The only problem is when you are in a dark setting and use a weapon light against a light background. The dot washes out. With the batteries stacked, the dot is twice as bright. It helps with losing the dot on a light background, and also helps when you are located in a dark area and firing into a well-lit area or daylight.
Quote:
I dont have any batteries to test though, and I think a Jpoint that bright would burn out faster (LEDs have a bad tendency for that) and it would kill your eyes at night. I still want to try it though =]

Yup, the battery life is halved. It still has a very long battery life, so I'm not overly worried about that. If you wanted, you could put it on a quarterly PMCS roster or whatever.
It does interfere with night adjusted vision, but it isn't too bad. You also have the issue of a forward emitting LED, although it is tiny.

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 Post subject: re: Red Dot sights vs. Holographic sights
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 4:52 pm 
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m24,

I am in the process of deciding between the Eotech 553 (the 65 MOA ring with 1 MOA dot) and the Aimpoint ML3 (2MOA). It will be going on my 9mm upper when it arrives. I don't anticipate kicking down any doors anytime soon and I am pretty sure I won't be using Night Vision (the ML version is not NV compatible). I would imagine that 99.98% of the time this will be shot at the range at 50 yards or less (remember 9mm).

With the exception of the Trijicon Reflex that I had on an AR 10 years ago, my optics have included only scopes.

What would your recommendation be? I do like "bullseye" shooting even at close range. Is the 1 or 2 MOA dot going to give me an advantage over a 4 MOA version of an Aimpoint at 25-30 yards?

Should I think about an ML2 (4MOA)?

Thanks,

~ Rico

PS... the cost difference of the Eotech 553 and the ML3 is negligible... I have found a 553 demo model that I can get at basically the same cost as the ML3.

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 Post subject: Re: re: Red Dot sights vs. Holographic sights
PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:19 pm 
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RicosRevenge wrote:
m24,

I am in the process of deciding between the Eotech 553 (the 65 MOA ring with 1 MOA dot) and the Aimpoint ML3 (2MOA).

Rico:
Both good optics. Be aware that the EOThingies have had some QC issues after L3 took them over. There have been guys that have sent the same optic back multiple times without the issue being fixed (ret switching off, crappy battery life, optic refusing to turn on, etc.). OTOH, there are a ton of completely satisfied users. I think they are OK, and for whatever reason this optic is really a love it or hate it phenomenon.

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What would your recommendation be? I do like "bullseye" shooting even at close range. Is the 1 or 2 MOA dot going to give me an advantage over a 4 MOA version of an Aimpoint at 25-30 yards?

At 25-30Y it doesn't make much difference if it is a 1,2, or 4 MOA dot. You're talking about covering .25, .5, and 1 inch at that range. The larger dots will generally get your attention faster, but the little dot inside the big 65 MOA circle is still going to be fairly fast, if you can live with the arrangement. Some people can't, so if you like that is all that matters.

Quote:
Should I think about an ML2 (4MOA)?

Only if you want to. I personally would go with the M3 if I was choosing between the two just to have the newer/better CET. The dot will be big, but it is still going to be relatively small at the ranges you are looking at.

Quote:
PS... the cost difference of the Eotech 553 and the ML3 is negligible... I have found a 553 demo model that I can get at basically the same cost as the ML3.

In that case, the 553 should be fairly trustworthy in terms of knowing that you are going to have a functional unit as opposed to taking a roll of the dice buying from a dealer.
Hope this has helped.

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 Post subject: re: Red Dot sights vs. Holographic sights
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:40 am 
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I love my $400 EOTech 551 (the short one) because it has a cam lever on the battery cover that plays all the music in this video: http://www.eotech-inc.com/video/video.php (Just kidding...) 8)

The new EOTech 556.A65/1 above is even better, with the buttons on the side -- ( http://www.eotech-inc.com/product.php?id=20&cat=2 ).
Image

My EOTech 551 lets me sight a target by red dot only, well below normal line-of-sight, so that I do not need to bring my pistol-gripped shotgun all the way up to my eye level. I am right-handed but left-eye dominant, so the EOTech gives me an advantage by letting me keep both eyes open. The EOTech 551 and the EOTech_556_A65_1 in night-vision mode are compatible with night-vision goggles, etc., and other night-vision devices cannot detect you by the light of your EOTech reticle in night-vision mode from the front or the side. (I suppose it is tough luck if they are behind you... :shock: Also, when used with a night vision device, always check to make sure the sight is not turned on before pressing the NV button to turn on the sight in the night vision mode.) GG&G makes quality lens covers for them, too. They will sight if the 65MOA circle and/or 1MOA dot remain visible through only a small piece of broken lens or a small area of lens unfrosted by cold air. They are quite rugged, fogproof, and waterproof to 33 feet.

These videos of an EOTech classroom give a very convincing endorsement of the EOTech.
Part One -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftfq6HmqWXA&feature=related
Part Two -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTBLODJd1F4&feature=related
Pt. Three -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_-8UREVt3o&feature=related

I have a $100 non-holographic, 2X red-dot scope for hunting, but IMO the EOTech rules for HD if the budget will allow. LED reflex sights cause eyestrain, and I think that they should be avoided. Moreover, 4MOA and larger red dots at longer distances can seem pretty big, meaning they cover up too much of the target, and thereby guessing affects the accuracy of the shot.
Image
Although I do not yet own an EOTech magnifier, I recommend NOT buying the $400 circular field-of-vision 3X magnifier. The $799 4X.FTS (Flip-To-Side mount and quick detach) 4X magnifier matches the full rectangular field of vision of the EOTech with no loss of light at dawn/dusk and no tunnel vision. It has a 600 meter range. http://www.eotech-inc.com/product.php?id=16&cat=4 / $799 @ OpticsPlanet on e-Bay http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-EOTech-4x-Magnifier-FTS-w-Flip-To-Side-Mount-SALE_W0QQitemZ220350502762QQihZ012QQcategoryZ66827QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

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 Post subject: Re: re: Red Dot sights vs. Holographic sights
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:25 pm 
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wfb18 wrote:
LED reflex sights cause eyestrain, and I think that they should be avoided.


:?: I find them much more comfortable to shoot than the EOthingy over time, and at distance.

Quote:
Moreover, 4MOA and larger red dots at longer distances can seem pretty big, meaning they cover up too much of the target, and thereby guessing affects the accuracy of the shot.


I suck as a marksman, and I can ring 2/3 size steel silhouettes at 300M with a 50M zeroed 4MOA Aimpoint. The dot is roughly the same size as the shoulders, and there isn't enough drop on a .223 to put me off the steel by "dotting the I".

That's the outside of what I can see at range, and proper trigger control is the only thing required to make hits at that distance... even with an unmagnified 4MOA dot.

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 Post subject: re: Red Dot sights vs. Holographic sights
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:50 pm 
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wfb18 wrote:
...IMO the EOTech rules for HD if the budget will allow. LED reflex sights cause eyestrain, and I think that they should be avoided. Moreover, 4MOA and larger red dots at longer distances can seem pretty big, meaning they cover up too much of the target, and thereby guessing affects the accuracy of the shot.

Before I bought an EOTech 551, I tried to save money by buying the compact ATN Digital Ultra Holographic Red Dot Sight. The red dot was way, way off-center when I first turned it on, and the tiny screws would not even allow the returning of the red dot to anywhere near center, much less let me get around to zero the sight with a laser boresighter. Maybe I was sent a returned item on which someone had stripped the tiny screws. When I got the Return Merchandise Authorization from http://OpticsPlanet.com, they told me that they were sick because of how many of this entire ATN brand, not just that model, were coming back to them. So I read enough to finally choose between an Aimpoint and an EOTech. I applied the refund to the EOTech 551 because I read several inquiries and comments on the OpticsPlanet bulletin board (if I remember correctly) by our soldiers who were buying them with their own money to take with them to the sandbox.
I have total respect for the Aimpoint optics. Aimpoint is a first-rate manufacturer and they have loyal customers. They have released important new products just in the past two years.
The two points in that paragraph in question are addressed in the beginning of the mentioned EOTech classroom video, Part One -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftfq6HmqWXA&feature=related These are two points that were made by the EOTech instructor, so other optics makers/users apparently disagree with him.
However, I was not trying to disrespect Aimpoint in any off-handed way, and review after review on Midway, OpticsPlanet, etc. praise the Aimpoint products.

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 Post subject: Re: re: Red Dot sights vs. Holographic sights
PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:01 pm 
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wfb18 wrote:
The two points in that paragraph in question are addressed in the beginning of the mentioned EOTech classroom video, Part One -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ftfq6HmqWXA&feature=related These are two points that were made by the EOTech instructor, so other optics makers/users apparently disagree with him...


He's a Streicher's sales rep, trying (evidently) to sell a department a bunch of EOtechs.

His statement that the "LED sights shine the light directly in your eye, causing eyestrain" came from left field for me. I am unaware of any reputable-brand red dot sight that does not use refraction to communicate the holographic image of a dot to your eye... including EOtech.

While the EO thingy utilizes actual holography (the reticule is a hologram), the others use direct refraction to achieve a pseudo-holographic effect.

The guy also said: "A 1 MOA dot is better, because a 4 MOA dot at [presumably long] ranges can get pretty big".

4 is bigger than 1? :shock:

Sorry, now I'm just making fun of the guy.

Look, we're talking about a dot that will be 4" at 100 yards vs. 1" at 100 yards. At 200 yards, 2" vs 8". 300 yards, 3" vs 12". Can you hold a 3" group at 300 yards with no magnification?

More importantly, the 4MOA dot covers 1" at 25 yards, vs 0.25" at 25 yards for the 1 MOA dot. In a close combat optic, bigger is often better.

Just something to think about that wasn't mentioned by the guy selling EOtechs (who lost my interest about 4 minutes into the presentation).

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 Post subject: re: Red Dot sights vs. Holographic sights
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:10 am 
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When my EOTech came, I was so proud to be holding a piece of American history right in my hands! The same American company that had projected the hologram of Princess Leah in Star Wars in 1977, and that had made the heads-up holographic displays for American jets and then American luxury cars, and that had made the EOTech HOLOgraphic Weapons Sights for thousands of our soldiers, had made one for me! And there it was in my hands!
Today, I suppose that an Aimpoint would have greatly pleased me. But it was the messages from and to our soldiers on the OpticsPlanet bulletin board that won me over to the EOTech.
Our soldiers were buying EOTechs with their own money and hoping that these EOTechs would help them to get home to their families. That really touched me, and it still does.
So I have gone back to the http://OpticsPlanet.com bulletin board to find some of these old messages that I read back when I was choosing between an Aimpoint or an EOTech.

A., 2004: "I am looking to purchase a quality scope for my M-16 rifle. What would you recommend?"
OpticsPlanet, 2004: "EOTech HOLOgraphic Weapon Sights (HWS) are adopted rapidly and supplied to the elite units in the US military and law enforcement. Due to the war in Iraq, all of the EOTech products are backordered for about 6 to 10 weeks..."
Site Admin, 2004: "If you will be shooting under extreme conditions, you may want something more durable such as an EOTech holo in a 511/512..."
S., 2004: "I am thinking of purchasing it for my m249 SAW to use while I am deployed..." Site Admin: "The EOTech has been by far the best selling sight for miltitary operations. When you consider we have sold many hundreds of these units and had virtually zero returned, you know it is made right."
Site Admin, 2005: "Like the EOTech, it offers the advantage of rapid target acquisition. The EOTech, though, offers a couple of advantages. First, it is a holographic sight - the reticle appears to float out away from the gun for a better 3D effect. Second, in the 511/512 or 551/552 version, the EOTech is a much more durable sight. It has extra body shielding and switch seals. It is, after all, made for combat. If durability is your concern, go with the EOTech."
Site Admin, 2006: "Unfortunately, laws enacted here after 9-11 do not allow us to ship any riflescopes or weapons sights outside the US. We cannot send this one to you."
E., 2006: "Hi, I'm in the New Mexico Army National Guard and I am getting ready for a deployment overseas and was wondering what type of rifle scopes do you have for a M249 SAW?"
N., 2006, "Trijicon? EOTech? Aimpoint?" Reply: "You picked the three best electronic sights available. The Aimpoint requires a mount, and the batteries last up to 50,000 hours. The EOTech has been chosen as the standard U.S. Special Operations CQB sight and has a one minute dot..."
Site Admin, 2006, "The EOTech HOLOgraphic Weapon Sight is the most rugged and durable holo available..."
Y., 2006: "Don't care what I spend but [I want] something to obtain the target quickly..."
Site Admin, 2006, "The world standard in a holo is the EOTech 511(N battery) or 512 (AA battery)."
Site Admin, 2006, "For that distance, I would look at a holographic sight, such as the 512-A65-KIT: EOTech HWS ...which will be the fastest acquisition sight you can put on that rifle. It's the same sight our troops are using in Iraq for combat."
R., 2006: "...S&W .460?" Site Admin: "Only sight we can recommend for that handgun is an EOTech HOLOgraphic Weapon Sight."
F,, 2007: "Hi, I am stationed in Iraq and I need help some finding a scope for my M4. Please I need some ideas and prices. Thank you." Site Admin: "The most popular sights for an M4 and M16 in Iraq right now are the EOTech holos... Can't get a better rapid acquisition or tougher sight..."
E., 2007: "Are the EOTech optics durable enough to mount on a Remington 870 Tactical police shotgun? Will the recoil and constant jarring affect the accuracy of the optics?" Site Admin: "An EOTech Weapon Sight is durable enough to mount on any weapon, including a shotgun."
B., 2007: "When will EOTech have their 4x Magnifier available?" Site Admin: "They tell us mid-year, but with the war, it's anyone's guess. If Uncle Sam suddenly decides he wants some, he goes to the front of the line and everyone else gets pushed back."
U., 2007: "Hello, I am currently serving in Iraq and I am interested in purchasing a new sight for my M4..." Site Admin: "...most of our troops opt for the more rugged EOTech HOLOgraphic Weapon Sight..."

I am grateful that we have Aimpoints. I am grateful that we have EOTechs. One of my friends came back minus one leg, about four weeks before he was scheduled to complete his third tour in Iraq. God bless my friend and his family, God bless our troops, and God bless the United States of America!

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 Post subject: Re: re: Red Dot sights vs. Holographic sights
PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:37 am 
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wfb18 wrote:
When my EOTech came, I was so proud to be holding a piece of American history right in my hands! The same American company that had projected the hologram of Princess Leah in Star Wars in 1977, and that had made the heads-up holographic displays for American jets and then American luxury cars, and that had made the EOTech HOLOgraphic Weapons Sights for thousands of our soldiers, had made one for me! And there it was in my hands!


Quoted for the hilarity.

wfb, do you actually believe the stuff you write? Just to be sure, you claim above that a company started less than 15 years ago (or its Michigan State University Laboratory forebear) created this image...

Image

...utilizing holographic technology that they are now using for simple weapon sights? Your claim that the image above was not a product of ILM, filmed on a blue screen, and inserted post-production?

Did you ever see the movie? :?

If it weren't 1:30 AM the night before a class, I'd respond further. As it stands, I'll let the regular crew have at it.

I appreciate your appeal to patriotism, but the Princess Leia thing was just to much to pass up.

ETA: If it weren't for the former and lacking the totality of your obtuse posts in this forum, I'd be inclined to think this was a joke. As I can see no way that it possibly could be... all I can say is "Wow".

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