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 Post subject: AA12 Super shotgun
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2009 7:56 pm 
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First time I saw this,

enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p4ebtj1jR7c


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 Post subject: re: AA12 Super shotgun
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 3:03 am 
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I have watched those great YouTube videos about the AA-12 for about a year, and I kept wanting a more exact answer if I could legally own an AA-12 fully automatic shotgun, and if so, what is the price of an AA-12?

From Western Firearms Company: In 1986, the United States government banned the future importation and domestic manufacture of machine guns for civilian consumption, and the already limited inventory of Class 3 weapons has since diminished substantially. At a rate now more accelerated than ever, these weapons are ending up in the hands of collectors who have no intention of ever selling them. The effect is twofold: Class 3 arms are growing increasingly scarce, and their prices are rising accordingly. Further Federal bans in 1989 and 1994 relating to semiautomatic clones of military weapons have spurred similar trends in that arena as well. Thus, the price of a quality, collector-grade Class 3 or semiautomatic weapon has spiraled beyond the comprehension of the average buyer. http://www.westernfirearms.com/wfc?set=02&sz=800x600

Mr. Jerry Babar, President/CEO of Military Police Systems, Inc. (MPS, Inc.) of Piney Flats, Tennessee and developer of the AA-12 Shotgun, kindly answered my questions today, 23 Feb 2009, which I transcribed (possibly with some minor errors) as follows: "[I am returning] your call about the AA-12. By the 1986 Federal law, any [machine] guns made prior to 19 May 1986 are transferable, and there are 400,000 legal machine guns in the United States. Any [machine] guns made after 19 May 1986 are not transferable to civilians and cannot be [built by or owned (inaudible)] by civilians. And in fact, if I ever get my license up, I can assure you that I can't even have them [AA-12's]. I can't keep them in stock or transfer them, or somebody will have my license. There are 19, almost 20 [AA-12] guns built right now and they are with various military operations for evaluation, and they are involved with some of the manufacture of them [AA-12's]. Watch the Military Channel in June [2009] for the new Robot video that we just did. It is a really good 20-30 minute video. It will be under the "Ultimate Weapons" program. Also, the New Yorker magazine has a six page article on us. I appreciate you for calling. Thanks alot."

Mr. Babar is a very nice and a very smart man. I appreciate that Mr. Babar returned my call while I was away.


http://www.zoominfo.com/people/Baber_Jerry_824351407.aspx has collected some excellent text about Mr. Jerry Babar:
Finally in 1987, Max Atchisson, broke and in danger of losing everything, sold the rights to the AA-12 to Mr. Jerry Baber, of MPS, Inc., in Tennessee. A brilliant engineer with a long history in the firearms business, Baber is also one of the world's foremost experts in high-precision cast steel parts. Along with his partner, Boje Corneal, an equally talented German mechanical engineer, Jerry Baber began production of a small number of pre-production samples of the AA-12 for test purposes using Atchisson's drawings.

During the interim, Baber and Corneal had businesses to operate, and Jerry Baber made parts for 39 gun companies at his B&H Precision foundry... In spite of their full schedules, Baber and Corneal continued work on the AA-12, finding more problems at each step of the way. After learning about a new state-of-the-art highspeed digital movie camera, Jerry Baber purchased it and a Savage Snail Bullet Trap to study how the mechanism fired, in slow motion.This was the key to ironing out the final bugs in the gun and by the fall of 2004, 10 firing models of the AA- 12 were produced.Several of these guns were demonstrated to United States Marine Corps officers with extremely favorable results, and tests are also scheduled for the Army with additional interest by the Air Force, Navy and Coast Guard.

How It's Made -- Most major components of the AA-12 are precision cast from exotic aircraft stainless steel, using the lost wax process. However, during this process is a separate and unique operation that insures a part that is about 99.9 percent finished. When I asked Jerry Baber who else in the world uses this method he told me he invented it and it is a closely guarded secret... Jerry Baber decided to go even shorter and perfected a 13" barrel for the AA-12 using a redesigned gas port. Called the CQB, this version has overall length that is the same as the M4 Carbine...

Jerry Baber is the fast-talking, white-haired founder of Military Police Systems, an arms manufacturer and ammunition distributor based in the hills of eastern Tennessee. When his chums at Blackwater, the security contractor, told him that the Robotex guys were the real deal, he invited them for a visit... Baber has ...a remote-control mini-helicopter called the AutoCopter, which holds two AA-12's and can carry the robots into battle... "It delivers the lead equivalent of 132 M16s," says Baber. At 72, Baber [is] ...trying to sell innovative concepts into an entrenched government procurement system. But he has a plan. First, the entire armory will go on display in Blackwater's lobby. That should get some attention. If not, he's counting on a public outcry. "If moms and dads around the country find out this system is available while their sons are off sopping up bullets in Iraq, they're going to tear the White House down," he says.


Auto Assault 12 Combat Shotgun- by Edward Eddins, owner of The Camo Store, http://www.camo-store.com/Free%20Stuff/AA-12%20Auto%20Assault%20Shotgun.htm
Military Police System recently unveiled a must have weapon in the current CQB environment. The company out of Piney Flats, Tennessee has come out with a unique selectable (via a unique trigger) 12-gauge shotgun called the Auto Assault 12 Automatic Shotgun or AA-12 Automatic Shotgun. The AA name originally stood for "Atchisson Assault" after the original inventor but has been changed since Military Police Systems purchased the rights to the unique weapon. The weapon utilizes a constant recoil system that reduces recoil by 90% as compared to a traditional 12 gauge shotgun. The reduction in recoil is the primary reason that this shotgun can be fired effectively in the automatic mode. With little or no barrel rise, this weapon is a monster when clearing rooms! The weapon will definitely become a force multiplier with its ease of operation and massive firepower in both the law enforcement and military arenas.

Technical Data - 12 Gauge (3" Shells) / 300 Rounds per minute / Fires a 20 round drum in about 4 seconds / Long Stroke Gas Piston with constant recoil / Length -
33 Inches with 13" Barrel (same size as an M4 with stock Extended) / 10 lbs with 13" Barrel / 8 round magazine, 20 round drum magazine, 32 round drum magazine / Black or various camouflage patterns / Matte Stainless Steel / Made of corrosion resistant, high impact, heat-treated stainless steels and high-impact plastics / Low Maintenance - The company during a Blackwater shoot, 5000 ROUNDS were fired through a single weapon WITHOUT cleaning or a drop of Lube.

What is Constant Recoil? - When the weapon's gun bolt is cycling a round, a gas system absorbs most of the shock and energy, about 80% of the total recoil. The weapon also has a very strong recoil spring that absorbs another 10% of the recoil. The result is a weapon that cycles efficiently and effortlessly while transferring 10% of the recoil of a normal 12 gauge to the shooter!

The Bottom Line - This weapon fills a void in the current military arsenal and could potentially change doctrine when it comes to CQB and urban operations. It has been said that the insurgents in Iraq do not fear a M16 but are very afraid of a shotgun. If this is true - the AA-12 should scare the hell out of them. A weapon that will fire 20 x #4 Buckshot 12 gauge shells in 4 seconds while spraying 540 .24 caliber pellets is bringing the smoke. Clearing a room with known enemy targets will forever be changed when employing this capability. You mean I get to carry a fully auto 12 gauge that doesn't need cleaning, fires a 20 round drum in 4 seconds and can be fired from a hummer because of the length - that's what every military ground pounder would love to hear on a deployment!


From http://guns.wikia.com/wiki/AA12 --
American gun designer Maxwell Atchisson developed his first selective fire shotgun by 1972. This weapon was intended for close combat in environments like city streets or jungles. It was to provide tremendous short range firepower for troops during ambushes, room clearance operations and other such combat situations. First prototypes were rather simple in design and used certain components of existing weapons. These were also highly unusual in that Atchisson used most unusual (for shotgun) method of operation - simple blowback with advanced primer ignition. This shotgun fired from open bolt, and had a rather heavy (1.4kg) bolt. Firing pin was movably built into bolt along with the internal pivot lever that caused the firing pin to extend and ignite the cartridge just prior to full bolt closure. To reduce peak recoil and cyclic rate of fire, Atchisson used extra-long recoil system, in which bolt after each shot recoils much further back than it is usually required to reload the weapon...

During late 1970s and early 1980 Atchisson reworked his basic design from open bolt blowback action to more safe locked breech, gas operated action. This was done in the view of the use of more powerful, specially developed military shotgun ammunition, loaded with flechettes or heavy load of buckshot... Now, receiver, shoulder stock and forearm were made as a single housing, assembled from two symmetrical units, left and right. This weapon also was selective fired, and used M16-style safety / fire selector on the left side of receiver, above pistol grip.

This second generation design languished for almost two decades, but recently it has been picked up by Military Police System that offers the slightly modified AA-12 selective fired shotgun for authorized military and police users in USA. It is possible that AA-12 will be used in limited numbers by some US agencies, but so far we have no information on actual use of this awesome weapon, which traces its ancestry to late days of Vietnam war.

Military Police System, out of Piney Flats, Tennessee, has come out with a unique select-fire 12-gauge combat/tactical shotgun called the "Auto Assault 12 Automatic Shotgun", or "AA12 Automatic Shotgun". The full-auto-only Auto Assault 12 Automatic Shotgun fires at a relatively slow rate of 300 rpm (rounds-per-minute) and employs the "Constant-Recoil" principle, which is a recoil attenuation/mitigation system that was first invented and patented for utilization in a gas-operated weapon by legendary small arms designer/developer L. James Sullivan for the Ultimax 100 LMG (Light Machine Gun), back in the late 1970's. "Constant-Recoil" allows a lightweight gun to outhit a heavier gun on full-auto. Since it utilizes "Constant-Recoil", the bolt group of the AA12 Automatic Shotgun never impacts the rear of the receiver, but rather runs out on the long 2-stage recoil/operating spring. This action eliminates the majority of felt-recoil, and thus greatly enhances controllability on full-auto. The result is more hits on target.

The Auto Assault 12 (AA-12) Automatic Shotgun is manufactured from "corrosion resistant, high impact, heat-treated stainless steels and high-impact plastics". The Auto Assault 12 shotgun requires no lubrication (unconfirmed/unverified). Rounds are fed from an 8-round box magazine, 20-round drum mag, or 32-round drum mag. That's a lot of 12-gauge firepower in a fully controllable package. Since the AA-12 shotgun fires at the relatively slow rate of 300 rpm, there's no need for a semi-auto setting on the AA-12's selector switch. Any skilled operator can easily control the round output via trigger control, including single shots and double taps. In other words, the operator's trigger finger IS the selector switch. The Auto Assault 12 (AA12) Automatic Shotgun also features a quick-change barrel system. Barrel lengths are from 13" to 18".


From David Crane of http://defensereview.com --
DefenseReview has just received exclusive video footage (links below) of an MPS Auto Assault-12 Full-Auto Shotgun (a.k.a. MPS AA-12 Full-Auto Shotgun) successfully firing (and cycling) British FRAG-12 munition (12-gauge grenade) on full-auto at 300 rpm (rounds per minute). The test (AA-12) shotgun successfully fired (and cycled) a total of 60 fin-stabilised FRAG-12 grenades/munitions over the course of the full-auto test, with zero malfunctions. The test was conducted on June 07, 2006 at an Action Manufacturing Company (AMC) test facility in Atglen Chester County, PA.

The developer of the AA-12, Military Police Systems, Inc., a.k.a. MPS, Inc. (Phone: 423-534-2480), had to modify the AA-12 Machine Shotgun to fire and cycle 3" shells (12 Ga.) so it would function reliably (i.e. fire and cycle reliably) with the FRAG-12 Grenade/Munition Family, which are in 3" format. The FRAG-12 12-gauge grenades/munitions were designed and developed by Experimental Cartridge Company Ltd. of England/Great Britain/United Kingdom (UK), and are currently being manufactured by Action Manufacturing Company (AMC), located in Philadelphia, PA. The FRAG-12 munition family includes High Explosive (HE), High Explosive Fragmenting Antipersonnel (HE-FA), and High Explosive Armor-Piercing (HE-AP) rounds. The FRAG-12 grenade rounds/munitions utilize fin stabilization for accuracy on target.

The original model AA12 Shotgun fires standard 2.75" shot shells. The new model AA-12 fires all 3" 12-gauge shotgun shells, including FRAG-12 grenade rounds (12ga). An AA-12/FRAG-12 weapon system/combo will likely offer any infantry force utilizing it a capability that no military force currently enjoys: relatively compact, lightweight, controllable (due to its use of Constant Recoil and other recoil-attenuation/mitigation mechanisms), and accurate man-portable full-auto HE/AP (High-Explosive /Armor-Piercing, a.k.a. Armor-Penetrating) grenade firepower for individual infantry warfighters. According to Jerry Baber, President/CEO of MPS, Inc., "there's nothing else like it." Total immediate firepower offered by the new 3"-version AA-12 will be 20-rounds (20-shot drum magazine), although an 8-round box mag will likely also be available for 3" ammo. ...a 32-shot drum mag (3") [has been] developed for use on unmanned vehicle systems.

It should be noted that Defense Review prefers the shorter and lighter AA-12 CQB model, which sports a 13" barrel and weighs 10 lbs. The AA12 CQB is the version we would choose as the base gun for an AA-12/FRAG-12 system intended for mobile infantry applications, and we believe that this system, if it proves out (i.e. meets military specs and requirements for reliability, durability, accuracy etc. in adverse combat conditions), would make an exellent companion to the new Milkor USA M-32 Multiple shot Grenade Launcher (M-32 MGL) for U.S. Marine Corps (USMC) infantry warfighters or alternative/stand-alone weapon system for both USMC and U.S. Army warfighters, not to mention Special Operations personnel operating under USSOCOM (a.k.a. SOCOM)...

By the way, Neural Robotics Inc. (NRI) is currently in the process of developing a larger-profile AutoCopter unmanned mini-helicopter with enhanced payload capacity. So, imagine a swarm of AutoCopter Gunships (weaponized AutoCopter unmanned mini-helicopters/unmanned combat armed rotorcraft), all outfitted with 2-4 AA-12/FRAG-12 weapons systems and 2-4 SPIKE fire-and-forget guided missiles, buzzing around the battlespace hunting for badguys/terrorists/insurgents during urban warfare operations. Talk about force multiplication and enhanced lethality.

The following is the Action Manufacturing Company press release on the AA-12/FRAG-12 test shoot that was released to DefenseReview: "Frag-12 & AA12 -- On 07 Jun 2006, Action Mfg. Company (Action), Military Police Systems (MPS), & The Special Cartridge Company (SCC), tested the Frag-12 HE High Explosive Shotgun Round with the AA12 fully automatic shotgun. ...Let’s just say the FRAG-12 ammunition & the AA-12 shotgun were made for each other.

Jerry Baber modified the magazine and chamber on his AA12 automatic shotgun to accommodate 3" shotgun ammunition such as the Frag 12 HE round. That’s right Jerry Baber and MPS now have a 12 gauge fully automatic shotgun that will cycle and chamber 3" shotgun rounds. With the modifications made to the AA12 weapon no changes were required to be made to the Frag-12 ammunition. We simply used the standard 3" Frag 12 HE round.

Here for the first time is a fully automatic shotgun firing High Explosive Frag-12 Rounds deploying a 20-round capacity drum. Now that’s some fire power designed to enhance combat effectiveness in urban areas by stopping vehicles before the vehicle reaches a checkpoint, door breaching from a safe distance, remote detonation of potential bomb threats and remote detonation of unexploded ordnance.

There is no doubt that we have sparked a lot of interest within the US military. The US Marine Corps War Fighting Lab at Quantico, VA is due to place an order with Action Mfg.Company for approximately 200 of the Frag-12 HE rounds that will enable the USMC to complete their safety certification which will enable the Frag 12 HE round to be used in live theatre. If safety certification goes well then it looks like a big order for Frag 12 HE ammunition could be in the works. In addition a small quantity of the Frag 12 HE rounds are being evaluated by SOC R&D stationed at Fort Bragg. In addition it now looks like the Marine Corps is willing to check out Jerry’s Baber new 3" AA-12 fully auto shotgun firing the Frag 12 HE. Just imagine a Marine armed with the AA-12 fully automatic shotgun itself loaded with Frag-12 HE ammo - now that’s a weapon system.

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 Post subject: re: AA12 Super shotgun
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2009 5:02 pm 
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In the meantime, get a professionally converted Saiga and an MD20 drum. It isn't the same, but it is as close as we private citizens can get. I hope my unit gets some AA12s for eval...

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 Post subject: re: AA12 Super shotgun
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:08 pm 
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Why would you need a professionally converted Saiga I have done 5 myself and they all work fine and do the job.

Remember the AA-12 fires from the open bolt like a submachine gun that can be a problem with mud and such.

Anyway I hope this weapon is successful I really and truly believe mag and drum fed shotguns are very capible weapons much more so than the tube fed tradutional shotguns. I am not too wild about the way the magazine is slid up the rail thing on the AA-12. My biggest point is that tube feeders take way too long to reload so transition is drilled into the head of a lot of shotgunners. with the Saiga you can rock and lock as fast as you can draw and aim a pistol. Any you have your primary weapon.

If they would ask my advice I would want a better magazine incertation system. The S-12 has a mag well that allows straight insertation of a mag similar to an AR. Jus my humble opinions.

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 Post subject: re: AA12 Super shotgun
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:08 pm 
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Why would you need a professionally converted Saiga I have done 5 myself and they all work fine and do the job.

Remember the AA-12 fires from the open bolt like a submachine gun that can be a problem with mud and such.

Anyway I hope this weapon is successful I really and truly believe mag and drum fed shotguns are very capible weapons much more so than the tube fed tradutional shotguns. I am not too wild about the way the magazine is slid up the rail thing on the AA-12. My biggest point is that tube feeders take way too long to reload so transition is drilled into the head of a lot of shotgunners. with the Saiga you can rock and lock as fast as you can draw and aim a pistol. Any you have your primary weapon.

If they would ask my advice I would want a better magazine incertation system. The S-12 has a mag well that allows straight insertation of a mag similar to an AR. Jus my humble opinions.

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 Post subject: re: AA12 Super shotgun
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:24 pm 
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I'll gladly sit and watch an episode of FutureWeapons, but they always annoy me with some of the wild claims and simplified descriptions they make when analyzing specific weapons.

Mostly, they'll try to depict one model of firearm as ultra-revolutionary and the ultimate apex of its kind, which almost no weapon really is.

There haven't been that many shocking developments in small arms since JMB died.


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 Post subject: re: AA12 Super shotgun
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 5:46 pm 
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I don't think the AA-12 will ever go to far. It is too big and bulky.

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 Post subject: Re: re: AA12 Super shotgun
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2009 6:54 pm 
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Banshee wrote:
I don't think the AA-12 will ever go to far. It is too big and bulky.

Agreed. They claim it can be fired from a HMMWV. Well so can an M2, but it isn't exactly ergonomic. The individual soldier is going to be limited on the number of mags that can be carried simply on the bulk of the mags.
It also states that it "fills a void" but I have to ask if maybe that void exists for a reason.
I don't see it changing much of anything. You have a quick firing shotgun that can be reloaded quickly. That's it. It still suffers from limited range, and that quick firing isn't supported by the limitation on the amount of ammo that can be carried.

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 Post subject: re: AA12 Super shotgun
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:36 am 
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Those several YouTube videos about the AA12 really show just what void in our combat capability needs to be filled. A picture is worth a thousand words.
Those 3" FRAG 12 shotgun shells explode with about an 18 foot sphere of shrapnel. The AA12 is a large bore weapon that is designed to have virtually no recoil. The AA12 has virtually no muzzle rise, so it stays on target each time and every time. In the video you can sense what is happening inside the room when 20 of these FRAG 12's fly 120 yards in through the small window one right after the other, all exploding within 4 seconds. And the FRAG 12's fly true for up to 175 meters, extending the range of what was thought possible for a shotgun, and they explode with genuine ferociousness.
And that is the void the AA12 and the FRAG 12 combo fills. The AA12 is a force multiplier. Soldiers with AA12's will have the advantage in accurate firepower when enemies try to shoot it out with them.
The FRAG 12's can explode on impact or explode at a pre-determined distance by setting a fuse/timer. So a soldier with an AA12 and FRAG 12 drums could spray an arc with FRAG 12's that rain down shrapnel, for example, at 80 yards or 100 yards or 120 yards or 150 yards. Enemies trying to rush a soldier may try to hide behind objects, but they will have to hide under something also, or they will expire. One of our soldiers could control large areas of real estate with an AA12 and some drums of FRAG 12's. There are also armor piercing FRAG 12's.
And remember, Mr. Jerry Babar has already demonstrated these AA12 and FRAG 12 combos mounted on his unmanned robotic AutoCopter Gunships for Blackwater, as the Ultimate Weapons program on the Military Channel in June 2009 will show.
Jerry Babar said, "Once you see the AA12 one time, then you understand that it is probably the most powerful firearm in the world. There is no way that anybody within 200 yards can face this weapon and survive it. He just cannot do it. There's just so much lead delivery on target, that it's just destroying everything in its path."
The AA12 is made from 7 types of stainless steel, making it practically maintenance and lubrication free. The fine carbon residue from firing settles everywhere in the gun, and it lubricates everything moving. This carbon is never cleaned. And the AA12 has big beefy parts, big heavy-duty parts to last without maintenance. The AA12 has the ability to operate in all weather extremes, from the Arctic environment to high salt content areas to jungles, to not even being affected if it were dropped in the ocean and used later on. The AA12 CQB model with the 13" barrel has the same 33" length as the M4 wth stock extended, and it weighs 10 pounds. That is not too bulky for a weapon that fires 180 "00" buckshot pellets in 4 seconds.

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 Post subject: re: AA12 Super shotgun
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 5:44 am 
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Here is what the marketers are doing with the AA-12 linkage, the Frag 12 can be fired from any shotgun. A S-12 with a barrel Comp and a Topmaul Buffer pad will have a lower recoil than without, still had a recoil but at 1/5 the price. I believe the void exists because of the slow loading ability of the tradutional shotgun and I don't feel the AA-12 and solved that problem due to the way a fresh magazine is loaded, maybe that problem can be solved with training not sure.

Just don't see the linkage between ammunition any shotgun can shoot and a perticular shotgun. Unless future weapons did not have enough for an epsidode so they combined the two to make the segment in the program.

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 Post subject: re: AA12 Super shotgun
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 2:56 pm 
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How isn't the void for something that makes an 18' shrapnel area filled by the MK 19?


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 Post subject: Re: re: AA12 Super shotgun
PostPosted: Fri Feb 27, 2009 10:30 pm 
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sjohnny wrote:
How isn't the void for something that makes an 18' shrapnel area filled by the MK 19?

It doesn't. The XM29 was a 20mm grenade launcher. All kinds of super trooper stuff. And it was pretty much left to wither. Part of the reason was that a 20mm GL just isn't that impressive. And those rounds were intended to do a lot more than the 12ga HE rounds.
So if it couldn't make it, I don't see how this will.
It is still a shotgun. It still suffers from relatively short range. It still has bulky ammunition that limits the amount that can be carried.
Within a narrow niche, it is great. But it is filling a void that isn't much in demand and still has a lot of downside to it.

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 Post subject: re: AA12 Super shotgun
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 3:10 am 
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m24shooter and sjohnny, I will call Mr. Randy Aukamp of Action Manufacturing Company of Pennsylvania again next week. He was very nice to me when I called him earlier this week. I will ask Mr. Aukamp if the Marine Corps War Fighting Lab has completed the safety certification of the FRAG 12. Also, I will ask him if he would like to comment on whether or not the Marine Corps anticipates ordering many of the FRAG 12's, and if so, how has the Marine Corps evaluated the usefulness of the FRAG 12's in combat, considering our other more powerful grenade launchers.

I just realized something today. Ever since 1972, the AA-12 has been designed to be a military shotgun only. Since 1987, Mr. Jerry Babar has worked to get the AA-12 operating perfectly, and he succeeded in 2004. It occured to me that years ago, Mr. Babar could have quit his determination to perfect this fully automatic shotgun that only the military can have. Mr. Babar could have instead sold it to the public as a semi-automatic shotgun. Mr. Babar himself cannot even own or stock or transfer any AA-12's due to the 1986 federal law banning the transfer to civilians of imported or domestically manufactured machine guns made after 19 May 1986.

It seems to me that Mr. Babar has an all or nothing determination to get the AA-12 accepted by the military procurement system because he is a true American patriot and he wants to save American lives. And he genuinely believes that the AA-12 and the FRAG 12's were made for each other.

Obviously the FRAG 12's can also be fired from any other 3" chambered shotgun, which is good. And the Saiga-12 is a very dependable semi-automatic Kalashnikov shotgun. If we ever go to war with Russia, we will undoubtedly face a few of the Saiga-12's. Mr. Babar is now in his 70's. I hope that Mr. Babar realizes his dream of getting his AA-12's in the hands of American soldiers. This Kentuckian admires the man from Piney Flats, Tennessee.

I think that Blackwater admires Mr. Babar too. Blackwater uploaded the video to YouTube.

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 Post subject: Re: re: AA12 Super shotgun
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 9:51 am 
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wfb18 wrote:
m24shooter and sjohnny, I will call Mr. Randy Aukamp of Action Manufacturing Company of Pennsylvania again next week. He was very nice to me when I called him earlier this week. I will ask Mr. Aukamp if the Marine Corps War Fighting Lab has completed the safety certification of the FRAG 12. Also, I will ask him if he would like to comment on whether or not the Marine Corps anticipates ordering many of the FRAG 12's, and if so, how has the Marine Corps evaluated the usefulness of the FRAG 12's in combat, considering our other more powerful grenade launchers.

I have no doubt that they might have some utility. And the safety certification is one step in the process; it can have that certification but that does not in itself indicate that it should be fielded.
To say the AA12 is filling a void is a little bit of a stretch. Kind of like someone marketing a titanium boarding axe by saying it fills a void in current military hardware. Does it? Yes. Is there a reason that void is there? Again, yes. While it would be useful in at least some applications it is a niche weapon. It is still a shotgun. It still has some of the same limitations as other shotguns.
Quote:
Mr. Babar could have instead sold it to the public as a semi-automatic shotgun.

Then one is left to wonder why he didn't. I'm sure that at least part of that is the possibility of ATFE slapping a DD on it.
Quote:
Mr. Babar himself cannot even own or stock or transfer any AA-12's due to the 1986 federal law banning the transfer to civilians of imported or domestically manufactured machine guns made after 19 May 1986.

Couldn't he get around that with the correct paperwork/licensing/incorporation? Otherwise how are other arms manufacturers able to produce/develop arms? It seems that LWRC, Colt, Barrett, and others have been able to produce automatic weapons in the last 23 years.
Quote:
It seems to me that Mr. Babar has an all or nothing determination to get the AA-12 accepted by the military procurement system because he is a true American patriot and he wants to save American lives.

And I'm sure the fact that he bought the rights to the thing have no bearing on that. Not doubting his patriotism or anything else, but businessmen tend to be in business for a reason.
Quote:
And he genuinely believes that the AA-12 and the FRAG 12's were made for each other.

I'm sure they work well together. I'm sure they are very effective in their roles, and in some circumstances there is nothing that could come close if it works properly. I'm just saying that it is still a shotgun, and suffers from some of the same limitations that relegate the shotgun to a narrow field of use.
Quote:
I hope that Mr. Babar realizes his dream of getting his AA-12's in the hands of American soldiers.

The only way I want that to happen is if it works as claimed, it serves a useful purpose, and the military wants it.
Quote:
I think that Blackwater admires Mr. Babar too. Blackwater uploaded the video to YouTube.

That means almost nothing to me. I do believe that the vehicle mount is about the best use for it, so long as it has a large ammunition feed device. But just because Blackwater hosts a video of something doesn't mean it is a critical item.

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 Post subject: re: AA12 Super shotgun
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:11 pm 
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Blackwater


That's not the name of the company anymore....


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 Post subject: Re: re: AA12 Super shotgun
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:18 pm 
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{TEX}Hawaii 5-0 wrote:
Quote:
Blackwater


That's not the name of the company anymore....


I've read it is now "Xe"

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 Post subject: re: AA12 Super shotgun
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 12:25 pm 
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Banshee Wrote:
Quote:
{TEX}Hawaii 5-0 wrote:
Quote:
Blackwater


That's not the name of the company anymore....


I've read it is now "Xe"


That's correct. A bunch of bad press and losing your contract with the government will cause you to change names.


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 Post subject: Re: re: AA12 Super shotgun
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 4:27 pm 
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wfb18 wrote:
Baber has ...a remote-control mini-helicopter called the AutoCopter, which holds two AA-12's and can carry the robots into battle... "It delivers the lead equivalent of 132 M16s," says Baber.
*************
A weapon that will fire 20 x #4 Buckshot 12 gauge shells in 4 seconds while spraying 540 .24 caliber pellets is bringing the smoke.
*************
The AA12 CQB model with the 13" barrel has the same 33" length as the M4 wth stock extended, and it weighs 10 pounds. That is not too bulky for a weapon that fires 180 "00" buckshot pellets in 4 seconds.
*************
Jerry Babar said, "Once you see the AA12 one time, then you understand that it is probably the most powerful firearm in the world. There is no way that anybody within 200 yards can face this weapon and survive it. He just cannot do it. There's just so much lead delivery on target, that it's just destroying everything in its path."

We have tens of thousands of Benelli M1014 Combat shotguns, and Remington M870 and Mossberg 500/590 shotguns in service that are far less effective than the AA-12. There are twenty AA-12's being evaluated right now by various military operations. But replacing pump and semi-automatic shotguns was never what I thought could be replaced or supplemented by the fully automatic AA-12 -- it is the M249 SAW. Before anyone bursts a vein, read below and consider the current efforts by the Marine Corps and the Army to reduce the weight of the SAW, and that the M249’s sustained rate of fire is only 85 rounds per minute. The requirement for the IAR calls for the weapon to fire 36 rounds per minute for 16 minutes, 40 seconds. The IAR also will be able to fire at a higher rate of 75 rounds per minute for eight minutes.

The AA-12 needs no barrel changes to control heat. A single AA-12 has fired over 5000 shells without lubrication, cleaning, or maintaintenance. The cyclic rate of the AA-12 is 300 shells per minute. The man in http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhstuvzMiB0 takes his time and still fires two 20 shell drums and three 8 shell magazines, totaling 64 shells in less than a minute. If he had used five 20 shell drums, he could have fired 100 shells in less than one minute.

That would be 2700 .24 caliber #4 buckshot pellets fired in one minute from the AA-12, compared to 85 .223 caliber/5.56mm rounds per minute of sustained fire from the M249 SAW. That is 3% of an AA-12's on target lead delivery. Even if a SAW could fire its cyclic rate of 750 rounds per minute without barrel failure, that would only be 25% of an AA-12's on target lead delivery.

So Long, SAW? by Matthew Cox of The Marine Corps Times, 15 Sep 2008, http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2008/09/marine_iar_091308/

Marine infantry units soon may replace their light machine guns with new automatic rifles designed to help gunners move faster on assaults. The plan is to buy 4,100 IARs and reduce the number of SAWs in the Corps from 10,000 to 8,000.

Weapons officials at Marine Corps Systems Command in Quantico, Va., are testing magazine-fed weapons from at least six gun makers in a search for a lighter alternative to the M249 Squad Automatic Weapon, which weighs close to 17 pounds unloaded. At the squad level, “the biggest hindrance to being able to effectively fire and maneuver is the weight of the SAW,” said Patrick Cantwell, capability integration officer for the Infantry Automatic Rifle program at SysCom.

The winning IAR design — which the Corps wants to weigh no more than 12.5 pounds — could begin replacing the SAW in infantry squads as early as next year. “We see this being the automatic rifleman’s primary weapon,” Cantwell said. “We obviously want it as soon as possible, but we are looking at sometime in 2009.” The M249 has been in service with the Corps since the mid-1980s. The standard model weighs about 22 pounds when loaded with a 200-round belt of 5.56mm ammunition.

Despite its weight, the weapon spits out up to 750 rounds per minute, providing small units with a tremendous rate of sustained automatic fire. [Note: the M249’s sustained rate of fire is 85 rounds per minute.]

Currently, Marine and Army infantry squads equip their fire teams with one M249 each. The difference is that Marine squads have three fire teams, and Army squads have two fire teams, said Col. Robert Radcliffe, director of the Infantry Center’s Directorate of Combat Developments at Fort Benning, Georgia. “It’s really all about firepower. The Marine Corps has a 13-man squad; we have a nine-man squad — that’s a four-man difference.”

Army infantry officials, however, do want to find a replacement for the M249... “We recognize that we need to find another solution for the light machine gun in the squad,” Radcliffe said. One option for replacing the SAW could be the MK46 — a newer version of the M249 with the same cyclic rate of fire of 750 rounds per minute and a reduced weight of 15.4 pounds unloaded, which was adopted by U.S. Special Operations Command in 2000... The standard model M249 SAW weighs 16.8 pounds unloaded. The paratrooper model M249 SAW weighs 15.95 pounds unloaded...

The Marine Corps has been talking about the need for a lightweight IAR since 2001... One of the biggest changes Marine gunners will notice about the IAR is that it’s magazine-fed only, compared with the M249’s belted ammunition. The M249 also can fire standard-issue magazines. Early on in the program, the requirement called for the IAR to use detachable, 100-round magazines. Now, Marine weapons officials are requiring only that it be able to run on the same 30-round magazines infantrymen use in their M16A4 rifles and M4 carbines...

Army infantry officials maintain that switching from a 200-round belt to a 30-round magazine would cause Army squads to lose the high rate of fire they have with the M249. “Volume of fire is important,” Radcliffe said. “The Marine Corps thinks it can get that out of a magazine-fed weapon. We don’t think the Army can.”

The M249’s sustained rate of fire is 85 rounds per minute. The requirement for the IAR calls for the weapon to fire 36 rounds per minute for 16 minutes, 40 seconds. The IAR also will be able to fire at a higher rate of 75 rounds per minute for eight minutes, Cantwell said.

Unlike the M249 — which relies on a quick-change, spare barrel to keep the heat down — the IAR will have no spare barrel, Cantwell said. It will rely on the slower rate of fire and other features to manage the heat... Cantwell conceded that “there is a sacrifice of the volume of fire,” but the ability to move fast and fire accurately outweighs it. With the IAR, “you have a more maneuverable weapon that, we hope, allows the Marine [gunner] to be more effective.”

To my way of thinking, the AA-12 is lighter, is more manueverable, is as accurate, has the same effective CQB range, and has four to thirty times more sustainable on target lead delivery as the M249 SAW, the MK46 or the IAR. Plus the AA-12 can fire 20 High Explosive FRAG 12 grenades through one window in four seconds.

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 Post subject: re: AA12 Super shotgun
PostPosted: Sat Feb 28, 2009 6:26 pm 
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Sorry, but the idea of replacing the SAW with a shotgun is one of the most insane things I think I've ever heard.
First, it doesn't have the range. It is still a shotgun, shooting shotgun rounds. You mention it being used in a CQB role. What happens when your team steps outside is now back on the 100-300 yard battlefield? What about taking fire from a building down the street? Are the shotgun users going to have to carry a SAW too?
Second, you seem somewhat awed at the ROF and amount of projos going downrange. As I have stated before, in order to support that ROF the troop is going to have to carry an insane amount of ammo in bulky, heavy magazines. And he's going to be spending a lot of time reloading. Actually, he probably won't in the real world if the hype is followed: he'll run out of ammo very quickly. Your statement that it is more sustainable is completely wrong.
Third, armor penetration. How well does #4 buck penetrate armor?
Fourth, barrier penetration. How well does #4 penetrate car doors, auto glass, or light cover?
Fifth, terminal ballistics. How does #4 compare to 5.56 at ranges beyond 25-30 yards? Let's go up to 00. How does it compare?
Sixth, you say the AA12 would be far more effective than the current inventory of shotguns. For the purposes that they are currently used for, I would say not really. The current inventory does the job just fine: they are a narrow niche use weapon. In fact, the AA12 may not even be as effective in breaching and LL use.
The IAR is a totally different concept and I think the Marines will end up re-learning the lessons of the BAR all over again.
Supplementing/replacing the current inventory of shotguns with the AA12 was one thing. Replacing the SAW with it is something else entirely.
I think you've bought into the hype and marketing a little too much.

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 Post subject: Re: re: AA12 Super shotgun
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:38 am 
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m24shooter wrote:
First, it doesn't have the range. It is still a shotgun, shooting shotgun rounds. You mention it being used in a CQB role. What happens when your team steps outside is now back on the 100-300 yard battlefield? What about taking fire from a building down the street? Are the shotgun users going to have to carry a SAW too?

I have read somewhere on this forum that very few infantry CQB shots are kill shots past 100 yards. The AA-12 is accurate to 175 meters with the FRAG 12's and good sights. (I am not stepping on that EOTech/Aimpoint/Trijicon mine again.) Because the AA-12 has 10% of the recoil of other shotguns, and virtually no muzzle rise, it can fire a stream of 20 FRAG 12's through a window of that building down the street faster than calling the BGs cell phone number.

"Shotgun" is somewhat of a misnomer for the AA-12. After all, slugs are simply large bore bullets. With an improved cylinder choke, the AA-12 can fire Brenneke slugs accurately to about 60 yards. With a rifled choke, the AA-12 should easily be accurate to over 100 yards with Remington Core-Lokt sabots (which have taken deer with one shot at 175 yards). I am NOT suggesting that the AA-12 be used as a fully automatic slug gun at intermediate distances. The M16 is for intermediate distances. I am simply reminding readers that a variety of shotgun shell ammunition for various distances and purposes can be carried for the AA-12. For 50 feet or less, the AA-12 can accurately fire twenty 3" shells with 15 "00" buckshot pellets each in 4 seconds, totaling 300 pellets weighing about 37 ounces. At the full cyclic rate of 750 rounds/minute, the SAW can fire 50 5.56mm bullets in 4 seconds, weighing about 7 ounces.
m24shooter wrote:
Second, you seem somewhat awed at the ROF and amount of projos going downrange. As I have stated before, in order to support that ROF the troop is going to have to carry an insane amount of ammo in bulky, heavy magazines. And he's going to be spending a lot of time reloading. Actually, he probably won't in the real world if the hype is followed: he'll run out of ammo very quickly. Your statement that it is more sustainable is completely wrong.

I am always referring to the sustained rate of fire that the weapons can operate at without barrel failure or without cooking off a round in the chamber. All parts in the AA-12 are beefed up stainless steel and no rate of fire has yet caused barrel failure. The M249’s sustained rate of fire is only 85 rounds per minute. The requirement for the IAR calls for the weapon to fire 36 rounds per minute for 16 minutes, 40 seconds. The IAR also will be able to fire at a higher rate of 75 rounds per minute for eight minutes.

I am not using the term "sustained" as a synonym for support or supply or logistics. Using a weapon with as many capacities as the AA-12 may well require re-inventing the wheel when it comes to defining fireteams and squads, support and supply and logistics. But I weighed about 400 of my green tipped Lake City Arsenal M855 SS109 Penetrator ammo and they weigh about ten pounds. A lot of that weight is brass. A 200 round belt of them would weigh over 5 lbs. By restricting the SAW to the sustained rate of 85 rounds per minute to avoid barrel changes or overheating, it would take a SAW 2.3 minutes to fire a 200 round belt, and the 200 bullets weigh about 28 ounces. That is right: 5 pounds of belt to fire 28 ounces of bullets in 2.3 minutes. There are about 28 ounces of "00" buckshot pellets in 15 3" shells (about two 8-shell magazines or 75% of a 20-shell drum, weighing about five pounds total weight). The AA-12 can fire these 28 ounces of "00" buckshot pellets from a 5 pound drum in three seconds. And with no barrel changes from overheating!
m24shooter wrote:
Third, armor penetration. How well does #4 buck penetrate armor?

Using the right tool for the right job, hardened slugs should match up with black tipped armor piercing M995 5.56mm ammunition.
m24shooter wrote:
Fourth, barrier penetration. How well does #4 penetrate car doors, auto glass, or light cover?

Using the right tool for the right job, the armor piercing version of the FRAG 12 grenade would be used, and black tipped M995 5.56mm ammunition is weak in comparison.
m24shooter wrote:
Fifth, terminal ballistics. How does #4 compare to 5.56 at ranges beyond 25-30 yards? Let's go up to 00. How does it compare?

Let's go up to slugs. Let's go up to FRAG 12's.
m24shooter wrote:
Sixth, you say the AA12 would be far more effective than the current inventory of shotguns. For the purposes that they are currently used for, I would say not really. The current inventory does the job just fine: they are a narrow niche use weapon. In fact, the AA12 may not even be as effective in breaching and LL use.

Agreed. The AA-12 will never, ever be used as a breacher shotgun or for mundane use. The AA-12 offers a higher volume of suppression fire than the SAW and it weighs 7 pounds less than the SAW. A 20-shell drum weighs the same as a 200 round SAW belt, but the 20-shell drum has 33% more projectile weight than the belt has, and it can be fired in 4 seconds versus 2.3 minutes for the belt when fired at 85 rounds per minute. And the AA-12 barrel never needs changing from overheating!
m24shooter wrote:
The IAR is a totally different concept and I think the Marines will end up re-learning the lessons of the BAR all over again.

Agreed. The M249 weighs 22 pounds when loaded with a 200 round belt. The IAR will weigh 12.5 pounds unloaded using 2-pound, 30-round magazines, but the IAR has no barrel changes to overcome heat and so it has to fire more slowly than the SAW. The 10 pound AA-12 with a 5-pound loaded drum is a far better option for the Marine Corps than the IAR. And as I wrote, perhaps fireteams could use the AA-12 to supplement the SAW, rather than replace it.

As always, I appreciate your expert opinions, m24shooter.

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