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 Post subject: 410 Federal #4 Buck
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 12:43 pm 
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Hi guys! First post from a fairly new shotgunner (if you don't count the trap I took as a gym class in college 30 years ago). Hope you don't mind if I jump right in with a question.

I just noticed what appears to be a new 410 buckshot shell with #4 buck from Federal. It is branded as "Personal Defense" and advertised as intended for the Judge 410 pistol on Able's Ammo (although out of stock).

I know there's a lot of discussion of the pros and cons of the 410 for HD. I also have a 20 gauge. But my wife is more comfortable with the Mossberg 410 HD model. But given that what she's got is the 410, I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed this #4 buck round and what they think of it compared to the 000 buck usually sold for 410 HD.


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 Post subject: Re: 410 Federal #4 Buck
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:57 pm 
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patrick07 wrote:
Hi guys! First post from a fairly new shotgunner (if you don't count the trap I took as a gym class in college 30 years ago). Hope you don't mind if I jump right in with a question.

I just noticed what appears to be a new 410 buckshot shell with #4 buck from Federal. It is branded as "Personal Defense" and advertised as intended for the Judge 410 pistol on Able's Ammo (although out of stock).

I know there's a lot of discussion of the pros and cons of the 410 for HD. I also have a 20 gauge. But my wife is more comfortable with the Mossberg 410 HD model. But given that what she's got is the 410, I'm wondering if anyone else has noticed this #4 buck round and what they think of it compared to the 000 buck usually sold for 410 HD.


I think if you look at Federal's website this new 410 load is actually 000 buckshot. What makes this new offering from Federal unique is where most manufactures (ie Winchester and Sellier & Bellot) load 2.5 inch 410 buckshot with three 000 pellets the new Federal load has four 000 pellets. The website advertises 1200fps and some have suggested that is from the Taurus Judge. I highly doubt they get that velocity from a Judge even one of the long 6.5inch barrel ones.

Later
mcb

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 Post subject: re: 410 Federal #4 Buck
PostPosted: Sun Mar 01, 2009 8:35 pm 
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Thanks. The Federal website says the sizes (note the "s") are "#4 - 000 Buck." The listing on Able's is clear that it is #4 buck. There is another listing for the 000 buck.

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=111686

(Hope that url insert works.)


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 Post subject: re: 410 Federal #4 Buck
PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2009 11:42 pm 
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#4 out of a judge couldnt have much penetration. id just use .45 long if i had a judge


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 Post subject: re: 410 Federal #4 Buck
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:31 am 
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There are not really a lot of discussion about the "pros and cons of the 410 for HD". The .410 is unsatisfactory. It simply will not penetrate to the required depth to Stop a bad guy.

Here's a test I did on the Taurus Judge.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm

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 Post subject: re: 410 Federal #4 Buck
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:02 pm 
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Thanks Old Painless. My wife had never shot any kind of gun before and the guy at the local store convinced her the Moss 500 410 HD would be right for her. I then fairly quickly concluded that I wanted a 20 ga, to have fun shooting trap (even though I suck) and to get the 18.5 barrel for HD. Now my situation is that my wife is just working on getting comfortable with the 410 at the local range. Don't know how well I'll be able to push her to the 20 ga, but it looks like I'll be smart to try, viewing the 410 as transitional for her (even though she doesn't see it that way at this point).

In the meantime, I wonder whether you think the 410 might perform any better out of a shotgun rather than The Jugde.

By the way, love your site. Thanks for the great info.


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 Post subject: re: 410 Federal #4 Buck
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:29 pm 
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Get some of the Winlite 20 gauge for her to try (not for defense - just for practice/familiarization). They are very quiet and have almost no recoil. It's 7/8oz of 8s at something like 3 fps (I don't remember the exact number but I think it was less than 1000fps). They'll probably recoil less than that .410. Then slowly work up to heavier loads as she gets familiar with it.


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 Post subject: re: 410 Federal #4 Buck
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:32 pm 
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Thanks sjohnny. I'll do that.


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 Post subject: Re: re: 410 Federal #4 Buck
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:51 pm 
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patrick07 wrote:

In the meantime, I wonder whether you think the 410 might perform any better out of a shotgun rather than The Jugde.


Better? Yes.

Good enough? No.

A .410 is not an acceptable choice for self protection. She might have to shoot a bad guy that is trying to kill her, and a .410 might not Stop him. Don't take that chance.

Let her practice with light 20 gauge loads, and then load up the 20 with buckshot for emergency use. She will not notice the recoil if a crazy bad guy is running at her with a meat cleaver, trust me.

Quote:
By the way, love your site. Thanks for the great info.


You are certainly welcome.

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 Post subject: Re: re: 410 Federal #4 Buck
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:42 pm 
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patrick07 wrote:
Thanks sjohnny. I'll do that.


You bet. These things from my 20 gauge SxS (28" barrels) are actually only a little bit louder than a .22LR from my Marlin bolt action rifle (I did a highly scientific test in my front yard after I bought the shells) and the recoil is light enough that I can shoot that 20 gauge one handed (I don't know if this actually means anything as I've never tried to shoot it one handed with regular loads).


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 Post subject: re: 410 Federal #4 Buck
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:16 pm 
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Thanks for the great advice guys.


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 Post subject: Re: re: 410 Federal #4 Buck
PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:39 pm 
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Old_Painless wrote:
There are not really a lot of discussion about the "pros and cons of the 410 for HD". The .410 is unsatisfactory. It simply will not penetrate to the required depth to Stop a bad guy.

Here's a test I did on the Taurus Judge.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot41.htm


I am a big fan of Box O' Truth but I must take issue with your buckshot segment of your Taurus Judge test. Cutting down a 3 inch 410 buckshot load and removing two of the five pellets is not a very fair test. You have reduced the payload by 40% and, I assume, have not adjusted the powder charge accordingly. No doubt significant pressure and thus muzzle velocity was lost.

From my own playing with a Judge the Winchester 2.5in 3-pellet 000 buckshot was the hottest load I have fired to date. The recoil was noticeable heavier than the 250gr 45Colt, 410 1/2oz #6 shot, and Rem 1/5oz slug and even Fed 1/4oz slugs.

I would love to see you repeat the test with some of the Sellier and Bellot and Winchester 2.5 inch 3-pellet 000 buckshot and if you can find the new Federal 2.5 inch buckshot with four 000 pellets that would be icing on the cake. I have some of the Sellier and Bellot 2.5inch buckshot and would be willing to donate a handful of rounds to the cause. PM if your interested.

mcb

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 Post subject: Re: re: 410 Federal #4 Buck
PostPosted: Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:00 am 
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mcbirch wrote:
I am a big fan of Box O' Truth but I must take issue with your buckshot segment of your Taurus Judge test. Cutting down a 3 inch 410 buckshot load and removing two of the five pellets is not a very fair test. You have reduced the payload by 40% and, I assume, have not adjusted the powder charge accordingly. No doubt significant pressure and thus muzzle velocity was lost.

From my own playing with a Judge the Winchester 2.5in 3-pellet 000 buckshot was the hottest load I have fired to date. The recoil was noticeable heavier than the 250gr 45Colt, 410 1/2oz #6 shot, and Rem 1/5oz slug and even Fed 1/4oz slugs.

I would love to see you repeat the test with some of the Sellier and Bellot and Winchester 2.5 inch 3-pellet 000 buckshot and if you can find the new Federal 2.5 inch buckshot with four 000 pellets that would be icing on the cake. I have some of the Sellier and Bellot 2.5inch buckshot and would be willing to donate a handful of rounds to the cause. PM if your interested.

mcb


I appreciate the kind offer, but I am "finished" with that test and no longer have the Judge I used.

I know that cutting down the shell was not the "best" way to do it, but as stated in the post, I was unable to find even one 2 1/2 inch buckshot shell, even though I visited every store that sells them in the county. But I doubt there would have been much improvement.

I looked at your site and you did some nice work on testing the .410 slugs. Your tests are what I would expect. I don't know why someone doesn't make a heavier projectile for the .410, but I suppose that even with a better projectile, it would still be a "weak" round compared to bigger gauge shotguns.

As far as the Judge, a .45LC is the best load for personal defense, by far.

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 Post subject: re: 410 Federal #4 Buck
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:15 am 
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The 410 is awesome for self defense..... if you were ever attacked by a rabid squirrel or deranged rabbit :lol:

Seriously.... given the choice between defending myself with a 410 or a dull butter knife I would take the 410 every time. :)


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 Post subject: re: 410 Federal #4 Buck
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 6:50 pm 
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Quote:
if you were ever attacked by a rabid squirrel or deranged rabbit


Yeah, but if that rabbit is really mean, you'll need the Holy Hand Grenade. :D


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 Post subject: Re: re: 410 Federal #4 Buck
PostPosted: Sat Mar 07, 2009 7:12 pm 
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patrick07 wrote:
Quote:
if you were ever attacked by a rabid squirrel or deranged rabbit


Yeah, but if that rabbit is really mean, you'll need the Holy Hand Grenade. :D


....of Antioch. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: 410 Federal #4 Buck
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:03 pm 
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Yes, I'd have to agree this is more comprehensive test:
http://mcb-homis.com/judge/index.htm

Based on 24 years of LE firearms experience, I'd say a .410 is fine for a homeowner who is recoil shy and/or not all that into guns. Beats a broken bottle every time. No perp is going to stick around after being shot with anything, and the .410 is not a airsoft, as some of the misinformed imply here.

I wouldn't go looking for trouble armed with a .410, but it's adequate enough for standing your ground when faced with an intruder. I don't imagine any of these "experts" who are denigrating it, would shrug off a guy armed with a .410 and go charging in either.


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 Post subject: Re: 410 Federal #4 Buck
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:33 pm 
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I'd take the .410 mossberg over a pistol any day of the week if that was my only options. However, if my options are to get the .410 and be done with it or teach the person how to use a 20 gauge or even a 12 gauge, if the person shows even the slightest inclination to learn, I'll go for the later.


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 Post subject: Re: 410 Federal #4 Buck
PostPosted: Thu Sep 10, 2009 9:47 pm 
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My dad has a saying about the 25 auto that I think would apply to the .410.
Quote:
The .25 is great if you don't have a gun.

The .410 beats the heck out of nothing but if I had options it would come in just ahead of a .25. The judge would be great for pounding tent pegs IMHO.

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 Post subject: Re: 410 Federal #4 Buck
PostPosted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:37 am 
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Squibber wrote:
No perp is going to stick around after being shot with anything

People say this all the time and I dont understand their thinking.

If the perp wounds you with a shot are you going to run or are you going to shoot back?
I would shoot back in most cases and I think someone who breaks into your house is very likely to do the same.

I wouldnt trust a 410 to make a clean kill on a 10 oz dove.

The Federal shell in question is #4 birdshot http://www.federalpremium.com/products/ ... spx?id=847 Good for animals up to 10 pounds, bad for a 200 pound armed meth addict.

liljake82 wrote:
The judge would be great for pounding tent pegs IMHO.

I think its a little too heavy for that, your arm might get tired halfway through.... IMHO.

I have more to say about the judge, none of it good, but i'll save that for another day.

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Last edited by FiveseveN on Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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