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 Post subject: Belgium 12ga double barrel d/triggers rabbit ears shotgun
PostPosted: Wed Apr 01, 2009 9:53 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:28 pm
Posts: 5
I aquired this gun from my dad several yrs ago and I'm trying to find the value of it. It's a 12ga double barrel, double trigger, double hammer (rabbit ears) shotgun. We were told it was made between 1850 and 1900. On the top of the barrels it has "Made in Belgium", with serial #1KG579. Up close to the triggers but still on the barrel, there's a mark that looks like a sideways j with a fish-looking emblem there.
I've posted my question on several sites in the last 2 wks but so far, I haven't received any comments.
I'd be glad to post a picture if it would help. We appreciate any help we can get!! :D
Sincerely
allyoop_58




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 Post subject: Re: Belgium 12ga double barrel d/triggers rabbit ears shotgun
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:57 am 
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Good close up of the gun and the proof marks will shed some light on the gun. Remove the barrels and find the proofs on their bottoms and on the action.

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 Post subject: Re: Belgium 12ga double barrel d/triggers rabbit ears shotgun
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:06 am 
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I have two Belgians as you described. Like A5guy said; post pics of the markings under the barrel chambers and on the receiver water tables of the receiver or describe each mark.

One of my guns has seven 'fish', the other one has six. The fish sign has been used for centuries by Christians.

I bought my guns recently at Cabelas, for $220 and 258. It seems recently, Sweeden started taxing the people for each gun they owned. So, people were selling guns they didn't use. Cabelas had literally atleast 200 in each of their stores, many different makes; some were in decent shape, some not.

Have a smith check your gun and enjoy it. They are a hoot to shoot. I plan on bird hunting with mine.

GO TO http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html

The quickest way to find the date of mfg, is to look for a small cursive letter under the barrels with NO other markings by it. One of mine has an 'f', which on the chart is 1927. These small cursive letters were not on guns before 1922, I believe.

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 Post subject: Re: Belgium 12ga double barrel d/triggers rabbit ears shotgun
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:06 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:42 pm
Posts: 3675
Would love to help you with your gun but you've told us nothing about it. A guns value depends on many things with condition, the amount of original finish on metal and wood remains, whether the gun has been modified (barrels cut off), the maker and so on. The fact that it says Made In Belgium tells us only that. The gun was most likely made some time between 1880, not 1850 that's too early and 1914 when World War One, The Great War or The War To End All Wars (choose one) cut off all gun exports from Europe. Serial numbers without the manufactures are useless. Photographs would be of help. You need to disassemble the gun into its three major pieces, the frame/butt stock, forearm and barrels and look for any markings you can find. Especially look on the bottom and top of the barrels, the water table (the flat part of the frame where the barrels close up and the locks for any markings. However I can tell you some things. Belgian made guns of the period given were designed for the ammunition in use at the time which was black powder loaded and they will have damascus barrels. The chambers are shorter than length of modern shells.
A lot of us consider the guns to be unsafe to shoot with modern high pressure smokeless powder loaded shells.


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 Post subject: Re: Belgium 12ga double barrel d/triggers rabbit ears shotgun
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:21 pm 
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Ned is correct. However, there are a very few really expensive gun made in this era. Only pictures will tell the real story.

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 Post subject: Re: Belgium 12ga double barrel d/triggers rabbit ears shotgun
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:39 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:28 pm
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Thank You all for your post and tryin to help me out. I'm not sure how to get my pics posted, but here goes....
ps. If you're unable to access them, please let me know. I posted about 20 pics of the gun on photobucket.
Again, Thanks!
Allyoop


http://s164.photobucket.com/albums/u21/allyoop_58/?


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 Post subject: Re: Belgium 12ga double barrel d/triggers rabbit ears shotgun
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:31 pm 
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About all I could tell is the gun looks to be in very good condition, but still have it checked out by a knowledgeable person.

There was too much light glare. Maybe if the light source came in from an angle the markings would show up better.

_________________
over the hill and picking up speed.

"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people...to disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."..
founding father George Mason.


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 Post subject: Re: Belgium 12ga double barrel d/triggers rabbit ears shotgun
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:49 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2008 10:42 pm
Posts: 3675
I have to agree about the lighting and the photos are a little too small to see any information. However the gun did appear to be in excellent condition. I did notice something that looked like a marking on the back end of the left barrel. Could you confirm this?


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 Post subject: Re: Belgium 12ga double barrel d/triggers rabbit ears shotgun
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 11:45 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:05 am
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Location: south texas
The marks are clear enough in a photo-manipulation program. Here's what I make of it, between Wirnsberger and the damascus barrels site.

Somebody was pulling your dad's leg about the age. It was made in 1970. (yes, even now the Belge still make hammer guns).

Actually, 1970 is when the barrels were proved. There is no telling when the barrels were mated to the receiver, or even if the receiver was made at the same time as the gun or drawn from stock, or is even an older receiver rebarreled. (I doubt that b/c of similar wear/condition.)

It's 12ga (18.2 & 18.3) made in 1970 (cursive i|) designed for modern 2¾" shells (long-'armed' cap C12-70 at the chambers).

The barrels weigh 1579gm (1k579) - the serial no is on the water table - and is proved at 17,000psi for smokeless powder (crowned oval PV).

I could not make out the inspector, but it will be a cap letter, all alone on the flat.

Sweet gun. Honour the old gal. Load it up with modern ammo and shoot the hell out of her in perfect safety.


GS


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 Post subject: Re: Belgium 12ga double barrel d/triggers rabbit ears shotgun
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:41 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:28 pm
Posts: 5
Thank You All for your replies to my recent request. :) So sorry I've taken so long to reply back to ya'll, we've been remodeling our house, putting in new windows, so it's been a busy week!
My dad just passed away March 11th (wow, almost a month now, seems like just yesterday) so I do cherish this gun.
Goatskin, Thank You for taking the time to take a closer look at my pics. Last night I worked for almost 2 hrs re-sizing them, zooming etc., etc., to No avail!! Didn't save the First pic as a close-up!! GA! Sooo, I gave up on that!!
Again, Thank You All![i][/i]
Allyoop


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 Post subject: Re: Belgium 12ga double barrel d/triggers rabbit ears shotgun
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:19 am 
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Location: peoples socialist republic
Sorry about your father's passing. Indeed, cherish the gun. One of my grandsons, a couple years ago, got a phez with his great grandpa's Stevens 16ga sxs.

_________________
over the hill and picking up speed.

"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people...to disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."..
founding father George Mason.


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 Post subject: Re: Belgium 12ga double barrel d/triggers rabbit ears shotgun
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:34 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:28 pm
Posts: 5
Hi,
I was wondering, since you did get a close-up look at my gun... Can you tell me about the letters LG that's on the barrel and the other letters EL (also on the barrel) which are a scroll/cursiv type letter?
Thanks again Goatskin
Allyoop
goatskin wrote:
The marks are clear enough in a photo-manipulation program. Here's what I make of it, between Wirnsberger and the damascus barrels site.

Somebody was pulling your dad's leg about the age. It was made in 1970. (yes, even now the Belge still make hammer guns).

Actually, 1970 is when the barrels were proved. There is no telling when the barrels were mated to the receiver, or even if the receiver was made at the same time as the gun or drawn from stock, or is even an older receiver rebarreled. (I doubt that b/c of similar wear/condition.)

It's 12ga (18.2 & 18.3) made in 1970 (cursive i|) designed for modern 2¾" shells (long-'armed' cap C12-70 at the chambers).

The barrels weigh 1579gm (1k579) - the serial no is on the water table - and is proved at 17,000psi for smokeless powder (crowned oval PV).

I could not make out the inspector, but it will be a cap letter, all alone on the flat.

Sweet gun. Honour the old gal. Load it up with modern ammo and shoot the hell out of her in perfect safety.


GS


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 Post subject: Re: Belgium 12ga double barrel d/triggers rabbit ears shotgun
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:35 pm 
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Location: peoples socialist republic
If you go to that 'Damascus barrels' site I posted earlier, it will tell you about the letters.

_________________
over the hill and picking up speed.

"I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people...to disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."..
founding father George Mason.


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 Post subject: Re: Belgium 12ga double barrel d/triggers rabbit ears shotgun
PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:49 am 
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Joined: Wed Apr 01, 2009 8:28 pm
Posts: 5
Thanks Patriot!
That was a very good suggestion, I even bookmarked it for future reference! That's why I'm asking my last question, about the letters. Maybe I'm not reading it correctly. this is what it said about the LG: "Replace #1 in 1810. Sole proof mark until 1853, when it became the mark for definitive proof. Since 1893, used on muzzle loaders only. Can be any of these 3 marks. 1810 to present".
& about the EL: "Replace #5 for provisional proof of barrels. Since 1924 reserved for smooth bores. 1852 – present".
Ok, so " to -present means All the way to PRESENT as in 2009? It all seems to clash to me.
Thanks,
Allyoop
Patriot usa wrote:
If you go to that 'Damascus barrels' site I posted earlier, it will tell you about the letters.




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